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 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD

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Malaconia
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Malaconia

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PostSubject: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 28 2015, 16:30

While eventually my aim is to collect a large army of DE & Harlequins, including all the models from the haemonculus covens that I like, I am still at the very beginning of my collection i.e. I own only a handful of models so far. So, here is another variation of a possible army. It is smaller and simpler than the list I posted previously, but it would also get me playing sooner.

Though the masque detachment is restrictive I like the ability to run and charge in the same turn, as well as the re-roll on harlequin warlords table and the phantasmancy discipline.

*Made a few revisions to the list. Removed Trueborn and Archon, replaced them with third Ravager, two Blasters for the warriors and a Succubus.

*Removed Succubus, replaced her with a Lhamaean. With freed points bought a Death Jester, Void shield generator with extra shield and gave the Voidweaver a prismatic cannon

*Last(?) revision to the list. I got rid of the Death Jester and upped the amount of Void shields. With the remaining points I changed the load out of the Harlequins from embraces to a mix of caresses and kisses. Now the list is ready, I hope.

HARLEQUIN MASQUE

ELITES
Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mask of secrets (for -2LD debuff & Fearless), Mastery Lvl 2
100pts

Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mastery Lvl 2
85pts

Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mastery Lvl 2
85pts

TROOPS
Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master [Warlord]
195pts

Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master
195pts

Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master
195pts

FAST ATTACK
Starweaver 1
2xShuriken cannon
70pts

Starweaver 1
2xShuriken cannon
70pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Voidweaver 1
1xPrismatic cannon, 2xShuriken cannon
80pts

CAD (DE)

HQ
Lhamaean
10pts

TROOPS
Kabalite Warriors 5 (Will go in a Starweaver)
1xBlaster
55pts

Kabalite Warriors 5 (Will go in a Starweaver)
1xBlaster
55pts

FAST ATTACK
Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

FORTIFICATION

Void Shield Generator
2xExtra void shield
100pts

Total 1850pts


Last edited by Malaconia on Thu Mar 05 2015, 22:20; edited 2 times in total
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ShadowcatX
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 00:05

I like the list over all, but a few concerns. Your succubus can't run and charge. Deep striking melee units aren't that good, especially without reserves manipulation.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 03:20

The best list I have seen for using the masque work. I am really hoping that I/you can make a competitive Harlequin army. Not sure how likely that is, but I think it is worth a try

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 11:42

@ShadowcatX wrote:
Your succubus can't run and charge.

Have a look here, and see what you think.
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t11721-rising-crescendo-and-ic

Regarding the list - It's got some good things, though some thing's I'd do to improve the "tax" of the masque. Like the voidweaver - the haywire cannon is kinda terrible. For a measly 5 point increase you get a vastly more versatile and useful gun in the Prismatic Cannon.

This may be a personal thing, but I prefer kisses on the players instead of the embraces, far more reliable - caress works best on the troupe master like you have - although they can do well on players as well if you're buying a lot of them.

Otherwise I kinda like the list so far Smile
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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 21:51

Thanks for the comments. I actually bought my first harlequins years ago just because I liked them. I never had a chance to play them though, so now today, with allies rules and the recent Harlequin codex I have decided to build an army around them anyways, competitive or nor. Hopefully harlequins can compete at least to a certain degree, but that remains to be seen.

As I have had a while to think about the army, I think this list is quite close to what I’ll end up with, partly because the masque detachment doesn’t allow a lot of variation, which is a shame. My DE HQ is one of the things I am not sure about, but first I want to address the voidweaver. To be perfectly honest I didn’t give the unit much thought, other than that, it’s a pity I’ll have to take that thing too. So to me both weapon options seem poor. If only the lance was strength 8… as it is, strength 7 lance with a relatively poor range and no melta just seems underwhelming, even with secondary fire options. Maybe it’s better than the haywire cannon, I haven’t really thought it through, but as it is, my points were tight so I didn’t want to pour anything more in to a unit I rather didn’t have. As soon as I get to playing, I’ll test both options to see which one of them works better.

About the HQ. There is no good place for a DE HQ in the masque list I think, so only a few options remain. At first I had an Archon with a Trueborn retinue and a raider, all armed with blasters of course, but it felt a bit out of place.

Succubus at least can contribute to a fight, even though she might have to straggle a bit behind of the faster Harlequins. I read the post about the Succubus benefiting from the Rising Crescendo and it’s an interesting interpretation, though I am quite certain it wasn’t the intention and that GW would FAQ it unfavourably if they’ll bother to address the issue at all. So, in the mean time, I don’t know, I’d like her to be able to run with the rest of the pack, especially since our codex’s aren’t that overpowered to begin with, but at the same time I can’t count on this ability to last. But if it works, succubus may be the way to go.

To me the succubus and the webway portal were a means to keep the fragile warlord from being targeted right away, especially if I got one of the better Harlequin warlord traits, such as being able to determine when the game ends. Also I could sometimes drop near a dangerous unit with a LD value, then drop it by -4 and psychic shriek it to oblivion. Wouldn’t work every time, but it’s something to consider.

Now that I think about other HQ options, lhamaean comes to mind. With the price of a succubus I could get her and a razorwing jetfighter or her and a couple of reaver jetbikes with cluster caltrops and heat lances. This would probably be the better option, though I know some people might frown upon the usage of a lone lhamaean as well… There is also the option to give her a venom, though I could get venoms anyway if I wanted to by just buying them for the warriors.

Lastly, the Harlequin weapon options. At first I leaned towards the Harlequin’s kisses too, they are kind of a signature weapon for them, but the more I think about it, the more it bothers me that it’s just a single attack and not even an extra attack on top of their usual attacks. Harlequins embraces on the other hand are 7-21 extra attacks that always hit at strength 6. Of course it’s only for the first turn of close combat and I have to be the one assaulting, but since that’s the plan anyways and my Harlequins need to handle all the CC, I think I’ll rather drown the enemy to attacks than to focus on a few specialized strikes. Like you said, it’s mostly a question of preference, but I like to have a lot of dice to throw around, I feel it evens out the odds in the long run.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 03 2015, 23:44

Your idea of the Harlequin's Kiss is incorrect btw. They make all their attacks still - except 1 of them are the guaranteed S6 ap2 Kiss of Death attack - which you roll separately to the leftover of their attacks. So it is a lot more reliable than the embraces imo - especially in future rounds of combat.

So each would have 4 attacks on the charge - one of which will be the S6 AP2 Kiss of Death attack. So yeah, less attacks but the guaranteed AP2 is certainly important.

But yes, it is dependant on your preference - but the Harlequin's Kisses are definitely better than you're thinking Smile

The succubus would be a perfect fit if you take the ruling that rising crescendo affects her. Otherwise your Lhamaean idea is a good idea imo - I've been playing with LVO/BAO rulings and they are ok with taking a single lhamaean so I'm going with that.
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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 04 2015, 02:13

Oh, I did know that the Harlequins armed with kisses still got to make their regular attacks. But now that I read my post again, I can see that I was a bit vague in my description. What I meant to say was that the S6 Ap2 attack was not an extra attack on top of the regular attacks, like the HoW hits are, which if it were would make it worth it to me and a lot better.

As it is at the moment, my worry is simple. If I attack something with 2+ saves, which most likely has an Inv. save as well, are the seven Ap2 attacks enough? Especially since some of them may/will miss and their regular attacks aren't that good against well armoured targets. I just fear that Ap2 might lull me in to a false sense of security against units I'd be better of trying to shoot to death than try to fight in CC. Also units that have 2+ saves aren't that common. Of course Ap2 works against any saves but higher the saves 4+, 5+ or even 6+ and bigger the unit is, the better those HoW hits get. Also I like the fact that they are automatic hits, not something you need to roll for. Anyway, I can see places where kisses could be what I want, especially with instant death rule. It is just that I always seem to roll badly when I would least want it. Even with seven attacks assuming trouple is at full power I am not confident I'd roll a single six to wound needed to instant death say a tyranid MC... I suppose that is why I've come to prefer loads of dice over a few powerful attacks. But that's something I've got to test as well once I get the models. I will make them WYSIWYG in time, but I think their weapon options got to be tested to see what works in actual game play. Maybe one troupe armed with kisses could be just what I need, in case I need an answer for heavier infantry/MC's.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 04 2015, 02:55

The problem I have with the embraces is that you have to get into base to base to get those HoW hits. I doubt you'd get the whole unit in base to base contact with the target, so a few will not get their HoW hits at all. But I guess with Rising Crescendo and Fleet you have a good chance of getting a good charge to get most in B2B with the enemy. A better chance than any other assaulting infantry unit in the game at least.

And yeah 2+ save units aren't thaaat common, but 3+ and 4+ save units are more common, and being able to punch through those are important.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 04 2015, 04:41

I wonder if taking a void shield generator would be a good idea for harlequins.

Seems like getting alpha striked would be their worst nightmare. That and some flyers as they don't really have any answers for them.

I am trying to find a way to make them work as well.
Wrote a 1750 list similar to yours. Inspired by your list. Going to 1850 I think I would just add a generator. Trying to figure a way to get a Razorwing or two...
I am thinking that I will just have to take two formations and a dark eldar CAD.
Thinking the formation with the troupe/seer/jester in a raider. And the one with the bikes and heavy that reroll jink.

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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 04 2015, 23:08

Void shield generator sounds like something that might work or even be needed to protect the fragile army at least until the Shadowseers get to cast their protective powers. So, not a bad idea. Would love to see your list. Not many Harlequin army lists floating around so far, so it would be nice to see what other people would take. You'll post it here at some point?

Personally I don't have a void shield generator and if I did include one I'd want it to fit in with the rest of the army's aesthetics. Conversion would be needed but I have no idea how I would go about with that. So, I'll probably go a different route and turn my DE CAD to Realspace Raiders detachment, then I can add a razorwing to the army. It won't be much of an anti-air, but it's better than nothing. I can add more if/when I choose to expand the army to 2000pts and beoynd.

About the cast of players. I was considering it, but the loss of Rising Crescendo is annoying. Also while Death Jesters don't seem that bad, they still feel kind of a tax, especially since they can't leave their Harlequin comrades. Even though Jesters have assault guns I'd rather have them on a squad that focuses on shooting instead of CC. But it's an easier way to get some harlequins and the masque detachment has it's taxes as well.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 05 2015, 02:02

I'll post it soon and remind you. I have two direction that I will consider when using harlequins.
as for the cast of players. I think I see them as being a bit of a defensive unit, since they are so fragile. that or do the LD bomb when the time is rights to make units flee. psych scream, and if the DJ gets a wound run the enemy where you want them.

There are companies that make awesome eldar type things out there. I believe secret weapon has some. I just got some stuff from some company and when I remember what it is I will inform you.

I am thinking with such a fragile army that a generator is almost required.

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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 05 2015, 19:12

Thanks. Looking forward to your army list and I am definitely interested in Void shields now. I made some revisions to the army list in order to include one. I got the points for it after I ditched the Succubus for a Lhamaean. Also, now I can fit a Death Jester in to the army, which is something I was regrettably missing. I like the Jester's fluff and it's aesthetics. I don't know yet how good it will be on the table top, but there is some potential.

Actually, I am also wondering if Void shields should be fully upgraded. I am not that familiar with the fortification, so I don't know how many layers of protection would be enough. Of course, if I did buy another void shield I'd have to drop the Jester again and get something else. Though, what I could get with 40pts that would matter is another thing...

*Made the decision to get rid of the Death Jester and up the amount of Void shields to maximum. I'll wield Death Jester on higher points games. For now, I think I am happy with the army list. Happy enough at least that I am ready to start buying models.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 05 2015, 22:31

One generator with three shields will work well

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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 06 2015, 17:55

2500pts is usually the maximum points limit at which I play, so it is up to this points limit that I build my armies to before I move on to another faction. Here is what I'd add to make this army 2500pts.

I'll admit that the choices are mostly aesthetic, but hopefully they won't drop the effectiveness of the army too much. I still have no AA and I couldn't fit a death jester after all, but other than that, this army includes all the models that I consider the most beautiful in the DE & Harlequin ranges, so in that regard I am very happy with the army. Also I know for a fact that I will frequently play against tyranids, so some poison shots are definitely welcome.

DARK ARTISAN FORMATION

Haemonculus
Scissorhand, Panacea perverted, Webway portal
Talos
Ichor injector, Twin-linked splinter cannon
Cronos
Spirit syphon, spirit probe
390pts

SCALPEL SQUADRON FORMATION

Wracks 5
1xOssefactor
Venom 1
2xSplinter cannon
130pts

Wracks 5
1xOssefactor
Venom 1
2xSplinter cannon
130pts

HARLEQUIN MASQUE

ELITES
Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mask of secrets (for -2LD debuff & Fearless), Mastery Lvl 2
100pts

Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mastery Lvl 2
85pts

Shadowseer (Joins Harlequins)
Mastery Lvl 2
85pts

TROOPS
Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master [Warlord]
195pts

Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master
195pts

Harlequin Troupe 8 (Will go in a Raider)
3xHarlequin’s Kiss, 4xHarlequin's caress, 1xHarlequin’s caress on Troupe Master
195pts

FAST ATTACK
Starweaver 1
2xShuriken cannon
70pts

Starweaver 1
2xShuriken cannon
70pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Voidweaver 1
1xPrismatic cannon, 2xShuriken cannon
80pts

CAD (DE)

HQ
Lhamaean
10pts

TROOPS
Kabalite Warriors 5 (Will go in a Starweaver)
1xBlaster
55pts

Kabalite Warriors 5 (Will go in a Starweaver)
1xBlaster
55pts

FAST ATTACK
Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

Raider 1
1xDark lance
60pts

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

Ravager 1
3xDark lance
125pts

FORTIFICATION

Void Shield Generator
2xExtra void shield
100pts

Total 2500pts
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 09 2015, 01:37

I have a variant:

Quote :
1850

DE CAD*

HQ:
Llama = 10

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS, Lance = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS, Lance = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS, Lance = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster (in Starweaver) = 55
5x Warriors, Blaster (in Starweaver) = 55

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Masque Detachment*

TROOP:
5x Troupe, Starweaver = 165
5x Troupe, Starweaver = 165
5x Troupe, Starweaver = 165

FAST:
Starweaver = 70
Starweaver = 70

HEAVY:
Voidreaver, Prismatic = 80

I would say that you will want some Razorwings in your list, definitely.  I've tried this list already and took home a win vs. a marine player, but I think the general direction you want to take Harlequins is plentiful S6 shooting.  I think S6 is better than Poison in most cases because of its effectiveness vs. armor and higher S vs. metagame T %.

You can always add more fun factor too by dropping a Raider and Warrior unit a Blaster somewhere for a Solatire.  I wouldn't leave home without the Razorwings though, you will want something to force jinks/grounding on FMC, and pie plates to erase hordes.

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 09 2015, 01:44

Would you think it'd be worth adding the splinter cannons on the Razorwings for FMCs? Or would you just direct all the ground fire at it, since that list seems to have a ton of it.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 09 2015, 01:49

@Caldria wrote:
Would you think it'd be worth adding the splinter cannons on the Razorwings for FMCs? Or would you just direct all the ground fire at it, since that list seems to have a ton of it.

Only if you have the points IMO, since the lances are there to force Jink or potentially get grounded.  You should have enough fire on the ground to force reactions because with that many Shuriken Cannon shots, the AP2 threat is very real.

I mean, it is what it is right?  You're playing DE and now you're playing with Harlequins, both fall far from the competitive ladder.  Regardless, the books are here to stay for god knows how long, so you might as well accept the challenge and bad matchups as you have them.  Just don't expect amazing results vs. something like 5x flyrants, demons flying circus, mechdar, IG leafblowers or adamantium lance.

My list should be pretty decent vs. mid-range armies that are not top-tier competitive, but I wouldn't take it to a tournament with any of the above since you're fighting uphill pretty hard.  The fact that you become more vulnerable to Wraithknights also hurts, but I'd trade that for a better fighting chance vs. a other matchups.  You should also be pretty decent vs. tyranid mass lictor lists since this many Shurikens (and Troupes, lol) puts the hurt on Lictors more so than Venoms.  Oh, and if you a Solatire, he absolutely destroys Deathleaper and his Lictors.  That's about the only thing he's good for, lol.

More here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2015/03/de-solving-harlequin-problem.html

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Malaconia
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 09 2015, 13:13

Thanks for the comments. I've read your blog now and in the past and I can't say that I disagree with your assessment, both on DE & the Harlequins. To me great part of being able to enjoy this hobby is finding the just right balance between aesthetics and playability. Sometimes it's incredibly frustrating, many models I dislike such as Riptides, Wraithknights and Imperial Knights are quite good, while many models that look good to me are not so much. Same goes for my choice of armies the mistreated CSM, Tyranids & DE/Harlequins. The horror of reading a new codex for any of these armies and realizing the absolute lack of options is still vivid in my mind. So, in that sense, Harlequins is nothing new.

I already made room for a razorwing in the army a few days ago as I realized it's needed against so many potential opponents. Now, I think I need to squeeze in another one. Of course as I add fliers and DE shooting Harlequin masque keeps shrinking, but that can't be helped I think. So, while my needs may not be as competitive as yours, if I spend countless of hours painting the models just right, I damn well want them to be playable as well. I'll likely lean closer towards your list and try to see just how much of the shooting I am willing to sacrifice, in order to fit in some of the characterful models of the Harlequins. I want at least one, be it solitaire, shadowseer or death jester, but I still want to keep the effectiveness of the army intact too. Personally I think DE/Harlequins can be 'good enough' for me, whatever that means. Probably something in between my pure CSM army that collects dust nowadays and my Tyranid army which has become surprisingly good thanks to the supplements.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: 1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD   1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 09 2015, 20:59

Quote :
To me great part of being able to enjoy this hobby is finding the just right balance between aesthetics and playability.

You got me 100% on that one, since I'm a firm supporter of this as well.

You probably know that I refuse to run Haemonculi filth in my Dark Eldar army, and that I've been playing straight Kabal for years and years.

I really enjoy the look of the Harlequins and their fluff as guardians [of the Eldar] of the galaxy, so I'll probably end up picking up some stuff myself. I really hate the idea of having Wave Serpents so I find the Harlequins to be a much better pairing for my army.

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1850pts Harlequin Masque with DE CAD Empty
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