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 Beastmasters and Pain Tokens

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Saintspirit
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furyan
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PostSubject: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 08:33

Ok, I don't know if this was posted before. I know that it was already FAQd that only the beastmasters benefit from pain tokens. How about being fearless? If beastmasters are fearless by getting 3 pain tokens, then does the entire unit benefit because they use the model with the best leadership? Characters stop being fearless when they join a non-fearless unit but beastmasters are not characters i think. I would like to believe that they do benefit from the fearless rule after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 08:59

I think they indeed are fearless. If one member of unit have rule that affect whole squad, then...

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 11:32

Is it the same with Court of the Archon? I.e. does the ur-ghul and the sslyth get fearless? I suppose it would be if it is so with beastmasters.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 12:40

This issue is complicated, because there are three normal types of USRs.

1. Like 'Eternal Warrior'; only the models that have this special rule benefit from it, because the rule only aplies when this model is affacted.

2. Like 'Infiltrate'; When an IC joins a unit and not both have the USR, it is lost for both.

3. Like 'Stealth'; When at least IC or Unit has this rule, all can benefit from it.

The Problem is, that Fearless follows it's own rules, because an IC that has it and joins a unit that doesn't, loses it, but an IC that hasn't it and joins a unit that does, gets it.

We use a house rule, that says, if the majority is fearless, than all are, if the majority is not, thenn all are not.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 21:42

I'm with Tiri on this - though I rule that the Beastmasters fearless would extend to the squad. They are fearless and all part of the same squad, only ICs without fearless joining a fearless unit removes fearless.

At least that's how I argue it - it's really open to opinion methinks.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 23:20

Just to keep that clear, an IC without fearless joining a fearless unit doesn't remove fearless, it gets it. A fearless IC that joins a not fearless unit looses it.

Hence the majority rule, like multiple tougness or weapon skill values, the few fearless can't keep the many from running, but the many can calm the few.
But yeah, it's absolutely open to interpretation.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 00:04

Yeah, I mispoke, but to clarify - the only way fearless doesn't last has to do with IC rules. There's nothing to prevent fearless expanding to the rest of the unit is the core point.

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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 20:29

So you say IC that IC that....but we are talking about unit not IC joining or not, beatmaster with pain token gets fearless, when you test Ld you use highest Ld in squad....wich is beastmaster with Ld8 and in this case he is fearless so yes whole squad is aslon as he is alive.
There is no place for interpretations here....not with this one I belive.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 21:35

Yeah, you are right, if you follow the rule strictly as it is written, the whole unit can become fearless, as long as the model with the highest leadership is fearless.
But on the other hand Beastmasters can never become fearless, because the fearless USR strictly says that it only applies to Troops, so that doesn't help us, right?
I think we all know, it isn't meant this way, but that is just interpretation.
There are many instances, were RAW and RAI differ by a lot.

The USR rules in the BRB are just written for units in which all models or none have this rule, but as so often GW contradicts their own rules, with new codexes and rules.
Exactly this situation, that some models in a unit have a special rule and some have not, was FAQed for stealth.

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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 21:52

@Tiri Rana wrote:
because the fearless USR strictly says that it only applies to Troops, so that doesn't help us, right?

Well, not. It apply to anything with this rule, no matter in which "FoC slot" You put this thing.
Or do You mean "Infantry" (as unit type)? Still wrong, it apply to Bikes/Jetbikes, MC, Jump Infantry etc... pretty much everything with LD.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 22:42

I know, it is meant that way, but it says:
BRB p.75 wrote:
Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and
Pinning tests they are required to take, and will never fall back.
It doesn't say anything about fearless HQs or Fast Attacks, though.
Pretty clear RAW, IMHO.

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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 23:42

LMAO^2 OMFG LOLZ.
Indeed, it does! Wow GW, just wow...

But seriously, it does apply to non-troops* units, like... let me find good example... from this edition... oh, whole Tyranids codex (for example Fearless MCs in HS, FA, Elites and HQ). And BA codex (again, dozen of non-troops with Fearless + IC that give rest Fearless + army-wide special rules that allow them to get "free" Fearless). And Ork codex (Waaaaagh! rule. And Mad Dok Grotsnik.). And...

Also, how/why can IC have Fearless then?



*It's funny, but "Troops" does not equal "troops" since one is "GW way to mention type with capital letter" and other is just regular word, equivalent of infantry (not "Infantry").
I'm pretty sure they FAQued that in this or previous edition (or somewhere. Totally remember that bit...).

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PostSubject: Re: Beastmasters and Pain Tokens   Beastmasters and Pain Tokens I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 11 2011, 19:44

"Troops" and "troops" are two different things; if "Troops" is capitalized, it generally refers to the FOC. The word "troops" can also mean, quite simply, "soldiers". Context is important, and you can't really deem it irrelevant in order to support some sort of RAW interpretation.

I personally solve the issue like so:

#1: The model(s) with the highest leadership value are used to take leadership tests.
#2: The model(s) with the highest leadership are Beastmasters, or attached ICs in a Beastmaster squad.
#3: If the model(s) with the highest leadership in the squad have 3 tokens, they are fearless.
#4: Fearless models auto-pass morale checks.
#5: Therefore, Fearless Beastmasters/ICs auto-pass morale for their dogs, cats, and birds.

Pretty simple. Once they die, the squad is no longer fearless. While alive, only they "benefit" from PFP, and their squad simply benefits indirectly from their improved resolve with 3 PTs.

Voila.
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