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 Hex Rifle vs FNP

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lowkeyy
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lowkeyy
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 12:00

@ Archon Mephitic
The Dark Eldar Codex describes the process in the Hexrifle rules. It states “a model that suffers an unsaved wound from a Hexrifle must take a characteristic test based upon their Wound values” “if they fail the test the model is removed from play, with no saves of any kind”
I believe “with no saves of any kind” is referring to FNP ability. It is a blanket rule.

I believe you are correct when you say that the model is given a wound if it has an unsaved wound. We differ at the next point. From your point of view you are taking the FNP ability before the characteristic test. I respectfuly disagree.

This is an example of how a ONE WOUND MODEL will roll for a Hexrifle wound:

1. Model with Hexrifle: Roll to hit; 3+ on BS4
2. Model with Hexrifle: Roll to wound; 'Sniper rule' always wounds on 4+
3. Model with Hexrifle: Is it rending damage?
-------- A. If Yes; Model with Hexrifle: Counts as AP2 so only invulnerable and cover saves allowed
-------- B. If No; Model with Hexrifle: Counts as AP4 so only 3+, 2+, invulnerable and cover saves are
---------- allowed
4. Model w/ one wound: Is the save successful?
-------- A. If Yes; Model w/ one wound: lives, no further effects
-------- B. If No; Model w/ one wound: takes 1 wound (Necron warrior down to 0 wounds. Could get a Res roll if not removed from play)
5. Model w/ one wound: must take the characteristic test on profile wounds or be removed from play with no saves allowed.
6. Model w/ one wound: is the Characteristic test on wounds successful?
--------A. If Characteristic test is passed; Model w/ one wound: is allowed a FNP ability to negate the unsaved wound (Or Necron Res roll ------------at end of player turn)
-----------------------i. Model w/ one wound: Is the FNP ability successful?
-----------------------------------a. If Yes; Model w/ one wound: lives
-----------------------------------b. If No; Model w/ one wound: takes the wound and dies. (If the targeted model had two wounds then it -------------------------------------------would lose one would and have one wound left.)
--------B. If Characteristic test is failed; Model w/ one wound: is removed from play. (Model does not get a FNP roll or a Res roll or a save ------------of any kind)


The FNP is only available if the targeted model passes the characteristic test on wounds not before.
Looking at the Dark Eldar Codex rules you take the characteristic test after the unsaved roll not the FNP ability roll. The FNP rules that I am looking at states that you have to have an unsaved wound, meaning that you tried to roll for a save and failed. Both refer to unsaved roll. The Dark Eldar Codex rules supersede the Core 40k rules. The FNP ability rule even states that if there is a rule that has the instant Death effect then you cannot use the FNP ability. Remember “cause” does not mean the same thing as “effect”. Instant kill has the same effect as Instant Death. The model is removed from play.

This is our special rule, it is meant to make other armies mad. Our Codex was made with 6ed in mind. Enjoy it; let the other armies plead their case that this weapon is unfair. Twisted Evil
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 12:50

@lowkeyy wrote:
...that if there is a rule that has the instant Death effect then you cannot use the FNP ability. Remember “cause” does not mean the same thing as “effect”. Instant kill has the same effect as Instant Death. The model is removed from play...

I have to dissent on this. First the instant death special rule doesn't remove models from play, but as casualties. So, they don't have the same effect. Additionally there are some things that can cause instant death effects, while not having a strength of double toughness, like force weapons for example. And their rules are worded extremly different than the Hexrifle rules.


@lowkeyy wrote:
...The FNP is only available if the targeted model passes the characteristic test on wounds not before.
Looking at the Dark Eldar Codex rules you take the characteristic test after the unsaved roll not the FNP ability roll. The FNP rules that I am looking at states that you have to have an unsaved wound, meaning that you tried to roll for a save and failed. Both refer to unsaved roll. The Dark Eldar Codex rules supersede the Core 40k rules...

That's my opinion, too. But some people at DakkaDakka argue that once you passed the FnP test it removes the unsaved wound and without unsaved wound the Hexrifle test gets obsolete. So it effectively cancels the Hexrifle.
I don't agree on that, but until now I didn't find anything in the rules that clearly supports my opinion and refutes theirs. It all boils down to opinion and common sense, two things that are hard to argue about.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 14:33

@Tiri Rana

I never said that Instant Kill is the same cause as Instant Death. I pointed out that they have the same effect. The book uses effect to mean the same result. I do realize the wording says casualties instead of play and I agree there is a difference. But, as far as I know there is nothing that allows an unsaved double toughness wounded model to survive. They use the description term vaporized. I don’t know how you come back from that. Laughing

As far as other weapons that cause Instant Death remember it is the effect (end result) that matters, not the cause (how it happened).

I am not too concerned with the Instant Kill vs. Instant Death talking point because the Hexrifle rule is a better position. I can show a tournament judge this rule and they will be hard pressed to dismiss my Codex rules in favor of the Core rule book. If so, I could then argue every opponent’s codex special rules that has some ambiguity in its wording. That would be a total mess and not fun at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 15:08

@lowkeyy wrote:

The FNP is only available if the targeted model passes the characteristic test on wounds not before.
Looking at the Dark Eldar Codex rules you take the characteristic test after the unsaved roll not the FNP ability roll. The FNP rules that I am looking at states that you have to have an unsaved wound, meaning that you tried to roll for a save and failed. Both refer to unsaved roll. The Dark Eldar Codex rules supersede the Core 40k rules. The FNP ability rule even states that if there is a rule that has the instant Death effect then you cannot use the FNP ability. Remember “cause” does not mean the same thing as “effect”. Instant kill has the same effect as Instant Death. The model is removed from play.

By your own admission both FNP and the characteristic check trigger on an unsaved wound, therefore, they must be taken simultaneously.
I also agree with Tiri, this rule is not the same as instant death.
I would also agree that FNP does not revert 'unsaved' to 'saved'. The wording is, 'Ignore the effects of the injury', lets not argue that there is no such thing as an 'injury' in the rule book and agree that this means 'ignore the wound'.

I am not saying you get to take the FNP against the char check, but, you can take it against the first wound. This then, would not cause the 'unsaved wound' to become 'saved' so you take the char test anyway and as they are both triggered by the same thing you take them at the same time.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 19:15

@lowkeyy wrote:

I never said that Instant Kill is the same cause as Instant Death. I pointed out that they have the same effect. The book uses effect to mean the same result. I do realize the wording says casualties instead of play and I agree there is a difference. But, as far as I know there is nothing that allows an unsaved double toughness wounded model to survive. They use the description term vaporized. I don’t know how you come back from that. Laughing

As far as other weapons that cause Instant Death remember it is the effect (end result) that matters, not the cause (how it happened).

I never said you said that instant kill is the same cause as instant death, I just said, that it is not the same effect. The instant death special rule tells us, that every model subject to instend deat is removed as a casualty, aka. reduced to 0 Wounds. This normally happens when a model is hit by a weapon that has double the strength of the target's toughness, but this effect can be triggered otherwise, e.g.: by force weapons. So the part that says:
BRB p.75 wrote:
...cannot be used against wounds from weapons that
inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength
or a special rule to that effect...

refers to rules, that say the wounded model suffers instant death, like force weapons do, but not every weapon, that can remove a model from play.
Besides, there are multiple things that allows a model that suffered instant death to survive. Eternal warrior, for example. Saint Celestine, a sisters of battle special character would be an other example. I'm not sure about necrons, but I was told reincarnation protocols now work without restrictions, as long as the unit isn't wiped out as a whole, so even those might be able to 'survive' instant death.
The Hexrifle does not remove a model as a casualty, nor does it use the term instant death effect anywhere and is not limited by the restrictions, that normaly come with instant death, so it is no instant death effect and as such doesn't deny FnP, besides the odd rending shot.


@lowkeyy wrote:

I am not too concerned with the Instant Kill vs. Instant Death talking point because the Hexrifle rule is a better position. I can show a tournament judge this rule and they will be hard pressed to dismiss my Codex rules in favor of the Core rule book. If so, I could then argue every opponent’s codex special rules that has some ambiguity in its wording. That would be a total mess and not fun at all.

The ambiguity is not in the codex, but the BRB, and if the judge rules against the ambiguity in the BRB, everyone could argue that their clearly written codex rules should supersede the BRB rules. It just doesn't work that way, the codex is not automatically right and the BRB wrong.
Codex rules only take precedence over BRB rules, if they contradict each other, wich is not the case here. Both rules work fine, even together. It is only one interpretation, that favors Hexrifles and one that does not.
Problem is, that there is still the interpretation, that a passed FnP roll negates the unsaved wound.
And even while I don't second that opinion, I can accept, that it is a possible and viable interpretation of the word "ignore".

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 19:50

Fair enough. I agree with a lot of what you said. This could be argued either way. But I think the following info can push it more towards the Dark Eldar favor.

I believe everyone agrees that FNP is an ability found under the Universal Special Rules (USR). If you read the introduction to these rules on pg. 74 of the Core Rule Book, you will see it states the following:

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of the these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)”

This shows clearly that the USR will not come before a Codex rule. The unsaved wound is followed by the characteristics test. Otherwise the USR rules get in the way of the Codex rules. These are clearly written as general special rules meant to compliment Codex rules not vice versa.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 20:49

@lowkeyy wrote:
Fair enough. I agree with a lot of what you said. This could be argued either way. But I think the following info can push it more towards the Dark Eldar favor.

I believe everyone agrees that FNP is an ability found under the Universal Special Rules (USR). If you read the introduction to these rules on pg. 74 of the Core Rule Book, you will see it states the following:

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of the these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)”

This shows clearly that the USR will not come before a Codex rule. The unsaved wound is followed by the characteristics test. Otherwise the USR rules get in the way of the Codex rules. These are clearly written as general special rules meant to compliment Codex rules not vice versa.

I don't want to be harsh, and I hope you don't take this personal, but that is not even close, to what that paragraph says.
BRB p.74 wrote:
As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes include one of the these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence (representing how the general special rule applies to that specific race)

This doesn't say, that everything in the codex supersedes the BRB, just that if some rule in a codex has the same name, as one of the BRB's USR and is different, then the Codex version is used.
So for example, if in our codex there was a line that read: "One pain token grants the USR Feel no Pain, that allows a model to ignore a injury on a roll of 3+", that would supersede the BRB.

Our torment grenade launchers give -1 to Ld, but they don't supersede stubborn.

Again, codex rules only supersede BRB rules, when they either explicitely say so, or directly contradict them. If there is a possible interpretation, that has the potential to weaken a codex rule, by interpreting a BRB rule more strictly or more tolerantly or even just different, than the option making the codex stronger isn't always the right one.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 22:54

I don't take this personal it's a fun discussion. Very Happy What I am doing is introducing different thinking lanes. People will have to make up their own mind on this subject. Once it is clear that the USR rules can be overridden by a Codex rule, the question then becomes what happens when parts of the USR rules collide with parts of the Army Codex.


What it does imply is that the USR rules are not to take precedence over Army codexes. We are discussing a USR rule that may limit an Army codex rule. Do you feel that after reading the USR introduction that the FNP ability takes precedence over Codex Hexrifle rule?
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 16 2011, 00:24

Nice that you enjoy it. I personally like arguing, if it's done right.

No, I don't think that a BRB rule should take precedence over codices, but I also think that this is not the case here. The FnP rule is written so poorly, that "ignore the injury" could either mean 'don't loose a Wound' or 'ignore that you were wounded at all' and while I hold the opinion that the first one is the better option, the second is possible and doesn't contradict the hexrifle rule.

My interpretation of the case is, that a model may pass it's FnP roll, not loose a Wound, but still be removed if it fails it's hexrifle characteristics test.

I just wanted to make clear, that there is a possible interpretation, may allow someone to come to the conclusion, that a passed FnP roll removes (or ignores) the caused wound and so denies the characteristics test. And while I don't think this is the right interpretation, I can't refute it and think it is viable, even if not helpful.

So I think we have made both possible viewpoints clear, now it's time to let everyone decide for themselves. Maybe, hopefully this whole issue will vanish with 6th ed.

I bid you to accept, that I argued not because I thought you were wrong, but for the fun of it, and surprisingly we seem, after about a page of arguing, to have the same opinion.
Hell, if you were around I'd spend you a beer.

But nontheless I think that this problem can, for now, not be solved more than building one's own opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 16 2011, 03:40

Sounds good to me. I would drink a beer with you any time.

Very good debate. You made some very good points. I also want to know what other Dark Eldar players think.

Maybe we should call in Myth Busters. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 16 2011, 14:47

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Nice that you enjoy it. I personally like arguing, if it's done right.

No, I don't think that a BRB rule should take precedence over codices, but I also think that this is not the case here. The FnP rule is written so poorly, that "ignore the injury" could either mean 'don't loose a Wound' or 'ignore that you were wounded at all' and while I hold the opinion that the first one is the better option, the second is possible and doesn't contradict the hexrifle rule.

My interpretation of the case is, that a model may pass it's FnP roll, not loose a Wound, but still be removed if it fails it's hexrifle characteristics test.

I +1 here.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 16 2011, 18:24

I already noted my beliefs - but for the sake of the post debate;

FNP isn't a save.
A Hexrifle is as useful as spitting at a vehicle.
Tiri has the better take on how the BRB and Codices interact.

I think that covers all the salient points, you guys went on a little side journey there Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 01:01

Yeah we did, but you summed the important parts up pretty well, especially the part, about me knowing everything better. :cough:cough: Cool

Maybe some new points will pop up in the future, but hopefully this problem will vanish with 6th edition.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 01:12

You're expecting an edition shift to tighten up their rules? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 01:20

Well, 'expecting' doesn't quite nail it down.
I'd like to quote one of my favorite TV shows here.

Zoe: "You sanguine about the kind of reception we're apt to receive on an Alliance ship, Cap'n?"

Mal: "Absolutely." (beat) "What's 'sanguine' mean?"

Zoe: " 'Sanguine'. Hopeful. Plus -- point of interest -- it also means 'bloody'."

Mal: "Well, that pretty much covers all the options, don't it?"

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 17 2011, 11:41

@Tiri Rana wrote:
Yeah we did, but you summed the important parts up pretty well, especially the part, about me knowing everything better. :cough:cough: Cool

Maybe some new points will pop up in the future, but hopefully this problem will vanish with 6th edition.

lol!
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