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 Hex Rifle vs FNP

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lowkeyy
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Fyrepwetty
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PostSubject: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 23:15

On a wound roll of 6, as a sniping weapon it becomes rending thus AP 2 thus ignores FNP. On a lessor roll of say 5, save roll fail, doesn't its characteristic test qualify it as an instant death special rule therefore still ignores FNP? Also if they pass the characteristic test, nothing happens right, they don't receive 1 wound? I want to make sure I have this down pat before I tackle a grey knight army this weekend...
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 01:00

Hexrifle hits, wounds. Model failrs/does not get save. Model takes wound. If not dead model takes charachteristic test....
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 01:01

So yes you get FNP against non rending hex rifle wounds. and if you save it you dont take a cha test
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 01:17

So the cha test is not considered an "instant death special rule" in relation to FNP in the corebook? So what would fall under instant death special rule since that section seperates out power weapon, & doubling toughness?
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 02:23

the charactheristic test happens after you take an unsaved wound
if you fail the cha test you are removed from play (not ID just gone, no save nothing)
its all about the order
1. Hit
2. Wound
3. Fail Armour Save/Get Rended
4. Fail/dont get FNP Save
5. Take Wound
6. Take Cha test
7. if Pass keep on trucking but wouned as per step 5
7. if fail remove from game
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 02:24

Essentially being removed from play is not a wound and is therefore not saveable (especially as you already just failed a save against a wound before hand)
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Fyrepwetty
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 04:46

ok, so basically that means that FNP classifies as a second saving throw so the previously unsaved wound becomes a saved wound, thus Hex's insta-death special rule doesn't activate. Cool, thanks. So long story short shave my dice to roll 6's Wink j/k
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 08:39

Re-read the FNP rules for some real mess...

They state that when a model takes an unsaved wound...

So which comes first? The hex rifle roll or the FNP???

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 12:19

This question always brings up this debate, and there is no 'correct' answer.
I wonder, why this wasn't FAQed already.

One group argues, that if you pass feel no pain, there is no unsaved wound left to trigger the hexrifle effect, others say, that both should happen simultaniously and that it is unimportant, that the unsaved wound is negated by FNP. Because if it would matter, then FNP itself would be broken, since it would eliminate it's own trigger.

Additionaly FNP is written very woolly, because it tells us to 'ignore the injury', but what an injury is, is never defined.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 16:08

Why doesn't the line under FNP throw it out anyways... "This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that cause instant death (by having a high enough strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior)." The remove from play characteristic test seems pretty instant death to me...
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07 2011, 20:42

Instant Death is a rule

remove from play is an effect...thas the problem
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 07:14

Hehehe I started a ten page argument on Dakka with this exact question and as far as I remember no concensus was reached. The whole crux is that both FNP and the Hexrifle effect trigger off of an unsaved wound but no priority exists within the rules as to which takes place first (as much as people try to add thier opinion but opinion has no place in a rules discussion), so until GW FAQ it there is no answer.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 14 2011, 02:50

weird, my post didnt take... 10 page argument? hahaha I can see them going crazy on that. Roll it off and keep playing and look for a different way to garner those marine tears. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 09 2011, 18:50

I took a look at the Hexrifle rules. If you read it all the way to the end, it does state that no other saves may be taken if the model fails their character test. I believe that this implies that the character test is taken right after an unsaved wound but before any other saves can be attempted. Let me know what you think.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 12 2011, 02:58

You do not get FNP against the wounds check.

If the shot hits and wounds, with no rending, you can take any saves you want as long as it's better than a 3+ (AP4) including feel no pain, with rending then only invul and cover saves are allowed. If you fail this, you then take your wounds check, against which no saves are allowed.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 11:59

I thought the Hex Rifle is considered to be an instant kill weapon. The rules for Feel No Pain (FNP) do not allow a FNP roll for instant kill wounds. Also I looked at the FNP rules again and it specifically states that FNP is used for unsaved wounds.

I am thinking you have to try to roll for a save before it becomes an unsaved wound. Meaning first you have a wound, then you roll for a save. Depending on the outcome you either have a saved wound or an unsaved wound. If it is an unsaved wound from a Hex Rifle then no further saves may be taken. This is backed up by the FNP rule for instant kills.

Hex Rifles replace a models’ supplementary save (such as FNP) with a characteristic test based upon the models’ profile wounds. In essence the Rifle overrides all secondary saves.

Maybe the Hex Rifle is being confused with a Sniper Rifle. I know the Hex Rifle has the Sniper rule but it has it's own rules that overide the Sniper rules. I do not believe the Hex Riffle is a Sniper Rifle. The Hex Rifle is an assault gun while the Sniper is a Heavy gun. The Sniper Rifle can damage a vehicle, while the Hex Rifle does not. The Hex Rifle causes instant kills while the Sniper Rifle does not.

I believe the Hex Rifle is an instant kill weapon. The real question is does everyone else think the Hex Rifle is an instant kill weapon or a regular Sniper Rifle?
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 12:56

As already stated the Hex Rifle does not cause Instant Death! Personally the way I would play it is to allow the armour save or invulnerable save and then allow the FNP. Only if the FNP was failed would I then be asking my opponent to take his characteristic test and remove the model if it failed that.

Being an instant kill weapon doesn't make it Instant Death or the rule would be mentioned in the text for the rifle. The same as a Shattershard does not cause ID. The Hex Rifle is a normal Sniper weapon (as stated in its profile), it just happens to have an extra rule if it does cause a wound that is not saved afer all the saves a model can take.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 13:32

@Urien Rakarth wrote:
As already stated the Hex Rifle does not cause Instant Death! Personally the way I would play it is to allow the armour save or invulnerable save and then allow the FNP. Only if the FNP was failed would I then be asking my opponent to take his characteristic test and remove the model if it failed that.

Being an instant kill weapon doesn't make it Instant Death or the rule would be mentioned in the text for the rifle. The same as a Shattershard does not cause ID. The Hex Rifle is a normal Sniper weapon (as stated in its profile), it just happens to have an extra rule if it does cause a wound that is not saved afer all the saves a model can take.

I never used the word instant Death. Instant Death is for weapons that double a models’ toughness. I used the word instant Kill. Instant Kill is a term that is used for weapons that remove models from play regardless of how many wounds the model has on its profile. An instant Kill weapon is even able to kill an Eternal Warrior with one shot. I think you are mixing the terms together just like mixing the term Sniper Rifle with the term Sniper Rule.

In the Dark Eldar Codex under the Hexrifle rules actually does say that “if they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Pg. 61 DE codex. Sounds like instant kill. You might have missed the wording in the Dark Eldar Codex since it is near the bottom of the rules. You are confusing Sniper Rules with a Sniper Rifle.

Most people just see the word Sniper in the gun’s stat line and do not read the description below. Unless you have the Codex and the Rule Book in front of you it’s a little hard to understand. Just take a look at the Codex again and see if you can find the differences to the Sniper rule that is found in the 40k rule book on pg. 31
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 15:10

@ Lowkeyy

'Sniper' is a weapon type that has the following rules; Always wounds on a 4+, rending and counts as S3 against vehicles. 'Assault' is a weapon type that means you can move, fire and assault in the same turn. The sniper rule can be used with any other weapon type, e.g. The Vindicare assasin has a 'Sniper' 'Pistol', the new Necron Deathmarks have a 'Sniper' 'Rapid-fire'

As for the Hexrifle, the instant kill only comes into effect after an unsaved wound and as such can only affect a model with more than 1 wound. Unless you score a rending shot then it is a normal AP4 shot, so, any 3+ or better saves can be taken aswell as feel no pain. If any of these are failed then the model suffers an unsaved wound. If the model is still alive he takes his characteristic test against which, no saves are allowed.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 16:02

@ Archon Mephitic

I think we are clear that there is a sniper rule. I think you are correct that the sniper rule states that it always wounds on a 4+. I do agree that there is rending but the Hexrifle specifically states that it cannot damage vehicles. Again it is important to read the entire description. The last sentence states “Vehicles cannot be affected by Hexrifle”.

Archon Mephitic As for the Hexrifle, the instant kill only comes into effect after an unsaved wound and as such can only affect a model with more than 1 wound. Unless you score a rending shot then it is a normal AP4 shot, so, any 3+ or better saves can be taken as well as feel no pain.”

Nowhere in the Hexrifle rules does it state that models will only be removed from play on a rending hit. It also does not mention that that it can only kill models with more than one wound. What it does say is the model will be removed if the model fails a character test on wounds.
The sniper rifle rule does not say that rending hits will cause instant kills on non-vehicle models. Where are you getting these rules from and where I can find them? Please do not tell me you are getting this from the FNP rule.

If you read the Feel No Pain rule it states “This ability cannot be used against wounds from weapons that inflict instant death (by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an eternal warrior)” The key word is effect. Effect means the outcome not the cause. Example; Death is the effect. How the death occurred would be the cause.
• Instant Death: Cause; wound doubles models’ toughness. Effect; model is killed outright and removed as a casualty.
• Instant Kill: Cause; model fails save and has unsaved wound. Model then fails character test. Effect; model is removed from play, with no saves of any kind.

I think that when they wrote “saves of any kind” they were saying that includes FNP save. I guess you could argue that FNP is not a save.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 19:12

Then it's a weapon that always wounds on a 4+ and is rending.

I think you're getting a bit confused. I didn't say that they are only removed on a rending hit, it just ignores armour and FNP, I also didn't say that it could only kill a model with 2 wounds but the characteristic test only comes into effect on a model with 2 wounds. I'll try and explain it step by step, even though it's already been done.

1. Roll to hit; 3+ on BS4
2. Roll to wound; 'Sniper' always wounds on 4+
3. Does it rend?
Yes; Counts as AP2 so only invulnerable and cover saves allowed
No; Hexrifle is AP4 so only 3+, 2+, FNP, invulnerable and cover saves allowed
4. Are the saves succesful?
Yes; Model lives, no further effects
No; Model takes 1 wound
5. Is the model still alive?
Yes; Must take the characteristic test or be removed from play with no saves alowed
No; Move on, he's dead dead dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 20:16

You are forgetting three thing.
1. Even models with 0 Wounds left must take the characteristics test. I agree, that often it is redundant and can be omitted, but sometimes it is important. For example Necrons, that are reduced to 0 Wounds, can come back, ones removed from play can't, the same for Celestine, and some other models.

2. FnP is no save. There are three types of saves. Armor, invulnerable and cover saves. FnP is a USR, that allows models that suffered an unsaved wound to ignore the injury, what ever that means.

3. Like the characteristics test, a FnP roll can be atempted after a model suffered an unsaved wound, so every model that is eligible to take a FnP roll is also eligible to be killed by the hexrifle test. The only thing in question is, if a successful FnP roll somehow removes the 'suffered an unsaved wound' condition. Some argue it does, some argue it doesn't. I'm pretty positive it doesn't, but it is never clarified in the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 14 2011, 21:57

I would imagine that the hex rifle goes off before the FNP so it would be

Armor save
Characteristics Test
then FNP

I personally ignore the hex rifle.

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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 01:35

@Tiri Rana wrote:
3. Like the characteristics test, a FnP roll can be atempted after a model suffered an unsaved wound, so every model that is eligible to take a FnP roll is also eligible to be killed by the hexrifle test.

I'll conceed to this one

@Tiri Rana wrote:
The only thing in question is, if a successful FnP roll somehow removes the 'suffered an unsaved wound' condition. Some argue it does, some argue it doesn't. I'm pretty positive it doesn't, but it is never clarified in the rules.

Lets say it doesn't, so, FNP and Characteristic test are taken at the same time. If you pass both then the model lives; If you pass the char check but fail FNP then you lose 1 wound; If you pass FNP and fail char check or fail both then it's bye bye.
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PostSubject: Re: Hex Rifle vs FNP   Hex Rifle vs FNP I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 15 2011, 02:33

I agree with lowkeyy as far as affecting vehicles go - the Hexrifle is gimped in that regard.

I disagree with him that FNP is a save - it specifically happens after saves, and you're only ever allowed one save. It's something else.

I do think that Hexrifles happen betwixt and between failed saves and FNP (or RAP, for that matter - unless it's wording prevents removal)

Hexrifles are still terrible though.

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