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 Warriors or wyches?

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Painjunky
Wych
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PostSubject: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 11:21

5 warriors - blaster - venom - ex splinter cannon.

We all know this unit and most of us love it. I like to take 3-4 of these but sometimes the warriors are next to useless. My question is would wyches with haywires be better?

5 wyches - haywires, hekatrix - Ago - venom - ex splinter cannon.

OK its 30 pts more but they can take out small units easy in cc or team up to take on bigger\more dangerous units and they can haywire to death any vehicle and surround transports like razorbacks to take out the passengers as well.

In both cases you could replace the venoms with raiders if you want more darklance but the question is the same. What do you think?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 15:26

I think 5 Wyches would have a lot of trouble surrounding anything.

Other than that - it's a perfectly functional unit and a reasonable option to field instead of Warriors depending on the goals/needs of your army.

I personally think, for the points, the Warriors are the better overall investment.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 16:30

I usually field at least 1 unit of Wyches, if only to pester Dreads.

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Lightcavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 17:14

2000 pts i use 40 warriors, and 20 wyches...but i do love my raiders. I find that 5 man squads result in a lot of death when your transport explodes, and are easily overwhelmed by squads of more than 10 (even with multiple)
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 17:59

10 man squads result in a lot of death when a vehicle explodes too. It's a percentage of wounds, so number in the squad doesn't change the percentage likely to die.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 12:36

I run 2 squads of 10 warriors in raiders which really helps their survivability. (Takes away that weakness of the large blast marker). On top of that I have a 9 man squad of Hekatrix bloodbrides with Lelith Hesperax in a raider. I think that you want at least 10 wyches/bloodbrides running in, you will get a minimum of 40+ attacks on the charge which will kill anything or a lot of something. 5 is too little. Same with the warriors, I find that make sure there's always 10 of them and put them in a transport, makes them very good, essentially like running with 10 marines but for half the cost.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 12:45

Only problem with that is that if you wipe the squad out on the charge then you'll lose your squad to shooting in the following turn. Small units of Wyches are taken to tarpit the enemy to prevent them from doing what they want to be doing. Using Wyches to tie up a Troops units gunning for an objective towards the end of the game is one of those sneaky tricks we Dark Eldar can use to pull out a win if we've not wiped the enemy off the table already.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 12:50

Yeah I agree with you, as sily as it seems I often run my Bloodbrides into a terminator squad or Nob squad because they will often win but remain in combat. Also the way I play is with the wyches up front supported by the warriors just behind. I shoot everything that could chew the wyches up in shooting next turn, so if they are in the open and the consolidation move can't get them into cover there is less of shooting threat- worst case scenario kind of thing.

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GreySeerZ
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 14:34

@Thor665 wrote:
10 man squads result in a lot of death when a vehicle explodes too. It's a percentage of wounds, so number in the squad doesn't change the percentage likely to die.

Yea, I'm sure he was referring to their reduced effectiveness, haha. As in 5 warriors reduced to 3 instead of 10 warriors reduced to 7.

Regardless, losing 2 wyches to an exploded vehicle reduces the squad to 3, and even with an agonizer, they will have trouble beating/holding much of anything. A unit of 8/9 wyches reduced to 6/7 has a lot more potential of hurting something in close combat.

Warriors on the other hand don't really lose effectiveness by having less members in the squad. Wyches suffer because that unit they charged is going to kill them in combat (effectively removing venom+4 wyches+hekatrix+agonizer in return for 2/3 marines). The warriors on the other hand might be completely ignored (in most cases there are more threatening units) and have the ability to survive additional turns to dish out some pain. In the end those downed wyches are also going to have to break cover to reach combat, and must rely on their 6+ saves to make it there. Warriors on the other hand can just sit in their vehicles crater and still output damage while having a 4+ cover.

Also, while the venom survives, the warriors inside can add fire to the vehicles. 20 poison shots is much better than 12. That said, I can see some situations where it might be advantageous to run 5-man wych squads (armies that completely SUCK in combat, but rock shooting) but in most cases, 5-man warrior squads are the smarter choice (imo). Wyches do best when given a pain token from the start, and with several ablative wounds to make the unit still effective once it reaches enemy lines.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08 2011, 01:24

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Looks like warriors are still king for MSU raider or venom spam. Wyches run in larger units to be effective.
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 16 2011, 05:04

Ya, I run 3-4 5man warrior squads in venoms/raides and a pair of 8man wych squads with nades and agonizer.. boht wych sqauds get FNP from turn one also. Thats a bonus.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 16 2011, 10:18

I just had my first game with Dark Eldar for years, and found that the wyches were great for holding the enemy unit in place until the Archon and his Incubi could get in there (it was only a 500 point game, so no vehicles unfortunately.) Unfortunately the Archon massively underperformed, killing only one Eldar guardian in the entire match, before eventually ending the game being chased around the board by Swooping Hawks! The wyches had great survivability though, as I got a pain token from combat drugs which made them difficult to shift. There were only five of them though, so the lesson there is to take more wyches! The sybarite from the Warrior squad also did surprisingly well, being the only surviving member of the squad. She vaporised a guardian with her blast pistol, then charged in and killed two more in combat before being brought down. Small squads were my undoing though, coupled with bad rolls for the most potent close combat unit. Squads of five troops just aren't enough to overwhelm a decent sized squad, even of guardians. Also, probably shouldn't have gone for the charge with warriors who have longer ranged basic weapons than guardians if they stand still. Shuriken catapults hurt...

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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 10:48

When comparing vehicle damage results from a Warrior Blaster or 5 Wych HWG, you'll be getting more glances from the grenades than the Blaster.

For example, if your Ravagers can Stun-lock a tank, the Wyches can run in and auto-hit with their grenades, to hopefully remove weapons, to then let the Ravagers pop transports on the next turn, for the Wyches to them charge what spills out....

I'm no good at math-hammer but I'm really interested to see the comparision between:

1 Blaster (5 man War)
5 HWG vs tank moved at Combat speed
5 HWG vs tank stunned in shooting phase

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 13:14

I run a 9 model Wych squad with either an Archon (Almost useless), or a Haemonculus (Less useless because of the pain token). Haywire grenades standard, and a power weapon and blast pistol for the Hekatrix. (Agonizers suck)

They're there for two things: Vehicles, and tarpitting some infantry. LOL to who ever thinks Wyches can wipe out infantry on the charge, S3 isn't wiping out anything, neither are a meager handful of power weapon attacks. Also, if you didn't plan for what might happen if you absolutely rocked in combat, re-examine your battlefield tactics. For the most part, it's Incubi that routinely wipe out infantry, not Wyches though.

Versus Warriors, well, shooting from large squads of Warriors can be absolutely brutal. Matter of fact, Warriors should never charge for this reason. (Never had success with them charging anyway) Warriors supply your ranged AP firepower, useful for murdering monstrous creatures and weedy infantry, while Wyches are a specialist unit for cracking slow moving vehicles and annoying or tying up infantry/dreads/deathstar units. (Even if they eventually die, it can be worth it to toss them at Lootas/Devastators just so long as they hold them up in CC most of the game)
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 13:46

Agonisers suck? Wyches can't wipe out infantry on the charge? Against MEQs, a charging squad of ten wyches has 30 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 5+, not taking into account any special weapons the squad might have, or results for combat drugs. They are striking first, therefore not getting struck back by whatever they kill. And when the survivors try to hit them, they jump out of the way on a 4+. If you've got a Haemonculus with them they have Feel No Pain if they fail that. They maybe can't chew up the squad just with attacks, but they should win the combat against many troops choices and plenty of elites, then probably catch them on the sweeping advance, unless they're marines in which case they can pile in and slaughter the survivors next turn.

Maybe I've been lucky with them so far or something, but the big pile of dead stuff they've generated includes a Daemon Prince (killed in two rounds of combat, for no losses) ten Noise Marines (one round of combat, no losses) Eldrad Ulthran (2 rounds, no losses - lucky with his invulnerable save. I know he's not a combat character, but it's nice to throw a name in there). Yeah they've had great success tarpitting stuff and taking out tanks, but to me that just demonstrates their flexibility. And they've always killed more than the Incubi, who frequently don't make it to the enemy (they're perceived as more of a threat, so get shot out of their Venom and have to get slogging).

Giving them an agoniser too, what's wrong with that? Wounding on 4s with no armour save? Not so useful if you roll plus one strength on combat drugs maybe, but still a threat. Plus it looks cool and ties into the fluff of the army nicely.

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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 14:02

You've been lucky. Sooner or later this will happen: You'll charge Marines, let's say a CC squad that got blown out of their Rhino, you will roll 2s and 3s with your 20 point Agonizer, then the rest of the Wyches won't kill more than 1-2 Marines. In return the Marines will knock 3-4 Wyches in the dirt, and then next turn, with no bonus for attack, you'll trade bodies with the Marines, if they don't laugh off your pathetic little S3 attacks first. (Try it against a Templar CC squad, just once) The reason I'm not a fan of the Aggy is because it always needs a 4+, AND costs 20 points. I'd rather spend those points on a blast pistol or something. (BP+PW for 5 more points, and now you get some extra anti-tank) I really don't see how having a 4+ save and T3 beats 3+ save and T4...

Your Incubi aren't killing because you've got 5 of them. Run a squad of 9, in a Raider, with a Haemonculus, and see what happens. With Onslaught and a Swiss Army Klaivex, it makes for a nasty deathstar unit. (Still occasionally bounces off of Termies) Don't listen to that nonsense about big squads of Incubi being "too deadly", nothing can be "too deadly". If you're worried about them getting shot after wiping a squad, DON'T SEND THEM ALONE INTO THE HEART OF THE ENEMY. Wink Pick at a flank, do multiple assaults, etc... (At the very least, make 'em waste all their shooting on FNP Incubi while the rest of your army goes unmolested)

Seriously though, maybe it's because I play against DE a lot with pretty much the ultimate anti-DE army, but Wyches are a medium close combat unit, not a strong one.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 14:34

I see your point there. In that situation, there are probably better things that the wyches could be doing. They might end up winning, or losing but killing a fair bit of stuff, but they've been deadliest for me when they've gone from tank to tank. I just like throwing them at stuff.

That's true with the Incubi too, I definitely need more of them - I'm not sure if I'd go for the Klaivex, but 9 with a Haemonculus would be a scary prospect indeed. That way if I field the Archon as well he can go somewhere else rather than putting all the really threatening stuff in one squad. I just like the old Incubi as mercenary bodyguards idea, but have to get out of that way of thinking! And they need a Raider instead of a Venom - If I deploy first, my opponents just stick a tank opposite them, completely nullifying any threat they'll pose to that side of the board if they're in a Venom.

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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 31 2011, 15:14

Yeah, see, I found that an S5 Klaivex gave me more reliable results a lot of the time than an Agonizer Archon. Klaivexs are I6, usually hit and wound on 3s, or hit on a 3 and wound on a 2. Points wise it's a little pricey, but it either allows you to drop the Archon, or stick him with Wyches, making them much deadlier.

There is a trade off though, taking the Haemonculus instead of an Archon means you got no PGL. So you don't wanna be assaulting any sort of CC unit that's in cover.
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PostSubject: Re: Warriors or wyches?   Warriors or wyches? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 01 2011, 03:43

That's why you take Shock Prows, not only to bunch up the enemy if it's well done but to also shove people out of Cover.
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