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 Haemonculus - Take Two

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 18:15

Im sure I am having a blonde moment but the question came up (to myself) while I was working on my Lady Malys all foot WWP list looking at possible tweeks to minimize a DOW deployment scenerio.

So when looking at the Haemonculus selection on arcane wargear it states.....
"Take up to two of the following pieces of arcane wargear"

So by that statement a single Haemonculus could if you wanted take two Webway Portals since its not a piece marked with an asterisk (*) thus limited in your army to 1 and thats the only limiting rule I can find regarding arcane gear given the context of take two.

I don't recall anything to the contrary, anyone?

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 18:40

I've always been curious about this, too, and haven't seen anything that says otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 18:55

Sure, but you would only be able to drop one each turn...

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 18:58

I see no reason you couldn't take two if you wished to.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 23:00

It's never written explicitly, and I didn't find anything to back that up, but, at least to me, it seems to be implied, that everything may be taken only once.

As I said, I can't prove it, but beware the implications. What about an archon with 3 Shadowfields, or heaven forbid 3 clone fields?
Yeah I know, that would be pricey, but the ability to ignore 3-9 hits in CC? That sounds to good to be true.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 09:12

Well no, you are able to give any model multiple weapons, aren't you? For instance, any HQ may have 2 Venom Blades, although to no further effect (see rules for special CCW). Any HQ may also have two Splinter Pistols, although as a model only may fire one weapon at a time, it doesn't benefit them at all. This is not limited to us Dark Eldar.

Weapons that are one use only, however, can be useful if taken twice (in order to be able to shoot once in two consecutive turns). The Shattershard has the 'one per army' limitation, the WWP, though, has not. Following this train of thought, you would be able to use both WWP from the same model - one portal at a time.

(Oh, and I think wargear (i.e. stuff that doesn't harm the opponent but help you) could also be taken twice but you can only benefit from one. I don't have a rule bool here, but does anyone know if this is written there somewhere? If yes, two Shadowfields become quite evil, don't they. Razz)

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 10:40

Yeah, but don't forget the weapons entry says: "Replace close combat weapon and/or splinter pistol with:" and the additional wargear entry says: "Take any of the the following:" or variations there of. (heamy for example says: "Take up to two of the following pieces of arcane wargear:")

So while you may replace your CCW for a venom blade and your splinterpistol for a venomblade, to get effectively two, there are two ways to interpret "take any of the following", either you are allowed to take anything you want, but only once, or you can take anything you want, as often as you want. I think there is no 'hard' definition to find.

I haven't found anything in the BRB about multiples of the same wargear. There are rules for multiple weapons, and saves, but nothing else. And even if there was a rule, like only one of the same items can be used at a time, this doesn't prevent from taking 3 shadowfields, since you only use one at a time.


BTW, I don't wana be a nit-picker, but no HQ can take two splinterpistols, but I get what you mean.
Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 11:29

Haha, are you a law student or something? You are always very clear in your answers and often use quotes to back you up. Very nice. Smile

Okay, so to sum up, what does it say about the WWP? Is it possible to give one Haemonculus two and use them in two different turns? How about the Shadow Field? Two are possible? Would be nice if you have the extra points and want to have a back-up if the first one fails and you survive the wound.

PS: Schön, einen anderen Deutschen hier zu haben. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 15:21

I hope it is ok as I have already tried it and I like the idea - too bad an Archon can't take 2 though.

I do not think anyone will find evidence that you cannot - the only players who would be savvy enough to argue it would be another DE player and at that point he is probably upset about having 2 portals on the table instead of just 1.

P.S. I put my 2 portal haemy in a squad of Harlies, walk up 6" and drop, repeat and rinse. Worked like a charm, be sure to have cover nearby.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 15:36

You know... it apparently is kinda like guns in Battlewagon entry in Codex: Orks. You have two options (Bid Shoota and Rokkit Launcha), however You may take up to four (all BS/RL or mix).

It also happen in Voidraven entry (Razorwing replace missiles, so it's different type of situation), You may pick up to 4 in one type.

I believe it is the case here. Lawer would say it's precedent. I would say "it's how book is written". Yay for GW.

[edit]
Whoops! I didn't have DE codex, but I instatntly checked and VR entry have options that may be taken multiple times and options that may NOT be taken multiple times. Apparently Haemonculus entry don't have this magical "of any type" bit like VR Missiles. No copies?

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 01 2011, 17:03

Actually I'm studying chemistry, but science is at least as much about precise information and reasonable argumentation, as law.
I just try to make clear what is effectively written in the rules, and what is merely interpretation or my opinion.
And language is a hobby of mine.

Yeah, the Voidraven has one entry saying "take up to four missles, of any of the following types:" and one entry saying "Take any of the following:".
I think these "Take any" are a choice, more similar to closets, than to warehouses. You may take anything you want out of the closet, but there is only one WWP or shadow field in the closet, so you are allowed to take any, but actually can take only one.

To sum up, there is no rule that says, you may take something twice, or not. But as I said I think it is meant to say no, since the effect of not taking two WWPs with the same model are much less severe, than being allowd to take two shadow fields or clone fields.
But as is, there is no rule that forbids to take some item multiple times, you could take two or more WWPs or even two or more clone or shadow fields, since the archon entry only says, you can't have both, not how many of one.

P.S.: Ja, wir sind ziemlich international hier. Aber mal zum Zocken treffen könnte schwierig werden. Wink

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Tue Sep 06 2011, 01:12; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Haemonculus - Take Two    Haemonculus - Take Two  I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 01:02

I think this pretty much comes down to the over-literal understanding non-native english speakers have of the english language.

The term "Take any of the following", to me, obviously implies you may take any of the items, but only one of each. This is further backed up by the fact that for example a Haemi's entry states "Take up to two of the following" or the Void Raven entry stating "Take up to four, of any of the following"

Basically, if the entry doesn't state you can take multiples of the same item, you can't.
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