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 long time marine player looking to dive into DE

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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

Posts : 17
Join date : 2014-12-19
Location : New York

long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 03:30

Hey Dark City, first time poster here. I am a LONG time marine player of just about every type... and I am sick of them. I want to explore the army that is the complete opposite of marines - DE.

So i am looking to build a 1000 point list that is lightning fast and as killy as possible. BUT i do not have the codex yet so am going by the little I "know." All comments are welcome.

Please help me build a MSU venom spam list that uses the following units to start:

Warriors in venoms
Reaver jet bikes
Scourges

and, if possible, a Succubus/Lelith as HQ (i know that is a curveball but i like the unit from a fluff perspective and it is the only DE model i own!)

Thanks for your comments in advance.

~Deuce
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Idealbroom
Hellion
Idealbroom

Posts : 51
Join date : 2014-11-05

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 05:19

Venoms with warriors in them are effective and cheap. Give the warriors a blaster as the only upgrade so that the unit can take on armour. I currently own 3 and have another on its way in the mail. they pump out 12 poisoned shots at 36" which is devastating if there are multiple targeting the same thing.

For me i run my succubus with grotesques in a grotesque formation as she is fragile. this is two squads of grotesques in two raders, succubus being in one. Do this to give her hardy bodyguards that like CC. I'm not too sure how else to effectively use a succubus, some do so with Incubi i believe but i feel that doing that isnt as effective as they are already kitted out with AP2 weaponry.

Scourges i dont currently own myself but they are quite an auto take for most lists as they are effective at AT stripping away hullpoints.

I run two ravagers currently to fulfill this role until i get my hands on some scourges. Ravagers have the range and the chance to explode and disable vehicles better with their lances.

Reaver jetbikes havent really done it for me since i have used them as they can die very easily. What they have been good at however is shooting across the entire board to pick up a point and providing a target for the enemy to waste their time shooting at.

I would recommend the Dark Artisan formation (Talos, Cronos and haemonculus) as its a hardy threat and with a WWP can land wherever you want it.

I would recommend a Razorwing jetfighter also as they are a solid flyer. they bring in the pain as it enters the game being able to drop 4 large blasts at S6 ap 5.

take a look at some batreps on YouTube to gather a better idea on how players use this army which might help you decide on what you want to work towards creating yourself. I would recommend SkaredCasts channel as he is a skilled Dark Eldar player Smile
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

Posts : 1160
Join date : 2012-08-22
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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 06:48

It depends a lot on the level of competitiviness you are aiming for. And what are you up against normally.

Venoms with kabalites in them are good almost always. Coven units (other than wracks) offer staying power to late games.

As stated by Idealbroom Succubus is great but needs Grots to babysit her. Reavers work great but need some thinking to use as there are many units that can remove them form play easily (Smart Missile Systems and shriek etc.) I have not found any use for HWB-Scourges. They rarely do enough damage and have next to zero staying power to last till next turn.

THere are some very good players and strategist on the forum who also make batreps so try to find them and learn whats good and whats not.

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
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Dat_Other_Guy
Hellion
Dat_Other_Guy

Posts : 75
Join date : 2014-07-04
Location : The Gladiatorial Arenas of Commorragh

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 13:31

I started with Reavers and I've never have put them down for a week. I still play Reavers at least week in a list. They are a lot of fun and give the opponent the illusion that your stuff is really lightning fast. Me I just like speed a lot. Take a look a the bikes and they will impress. Cheers Wink
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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 16:04

Some great advice here.

I play "friendly competitive" i guess.  I've never played a tournament but i and my opponents play for the win and use imperfect but efficient armies.

I like the idea of the grot formation to protect he succubus as it would raise the average toughness and supply hardy ablative wounds.  But won't two raiders in a low point game make target priority too easy for my opponent?

Regarding the Scourges: i have read all over the place that the most efficient, min/max way to build is 5 deep with 4 Haywire blasters (HWBs).  Average rolls might strip 2 hull points at which point the return fire annihilate or cripples the squad - 120 points down the tube.  My friend and I theory hammered that bulking up the squad with ablative wounds might actually be a good idea for scourges.  Similar to 5 edition Devastator marines, body bags in the form of bolter marines were necessary to weather a round or two of attack before the unit lost all effectiveness.  Scourges are even more fragile so a full squad of ten might be necessary so those 4 HWBs can last until a second round whereby they can strip another 2 hull points off a designated target.   Of course one glaring difference in my example is that scourges are up close and ripe for catching an assault. the Devs were usually far out of harm way and only concerned with long range gun fire.

Regarding Reavers: I have heard mixed reviews of this unit.  Many say they don't perform. Many say some min units are necessary to capture far/maelstrom objectives.  Still others claim that with large enough squad sizes and caltrops they'll sufficiently hit as hard as they need to.  So i suppose the way to go is to buy 6 to start and try it out in two min squads for objective grabbing one game and then a squad of 6 to try and assault things another.

***

Long story short - how's the following for approximately 1000 points?  I think there are less than 10 points left.  Will the Succubus have a ride in a venom or is she the odd (wo)man out?

Succubus w/ glaive(?)

4x 5x Warriors w/ blaster in Venom w/ Cannon

2x 5x Scourges w/ 4x HWBs

2x 6x Reavers w/ 2x Caltrops and blaster


Ugh just realized that I have 4 Fast attack... so i guess in the short run i'll merge the scourges into one unit and hope that, as discussed above, the extra meat shields makes the unit work for two offensive turns.
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 17:42

Or you could use real space raiders detachment from codex.

Where does the succubus go?

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog
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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 17:44

What is the "real space raiders" detachment?

I don't know what to do with her lol. suggestions? can i buy her a bike or something?
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 17:49

The codex will answer these things when you get it. Rules fishing isn't allowed here.

The succubus needs a obvious place still.

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog
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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

Posts : 17
Join date : 2014-12-19
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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 18:27

Rules fishing? c'mon i am not asking for stats of wargear or specific points costs of units. i'm pretty sure asking what a detachment does is fair game.
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 18:53

I was referring to the Succubus wargear stuff more.

The detachment gives you more fast slots but loses obsec.

_________________
New Dark Eldar in Tournaments: Wins: 17 Draws: 2 Losses: 8
ETC 2013 DE/Eldar player (4th)
ETC 2014 Coach (16th)
ETC 2015 Captain, Eldar/DE (10th)
Painting blog
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Idealbroom
Hellion
Idealbroom

Posts : 51
Join date : 2014-11-05

long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 19:50

Succubus needs body guards. I believe she best goes with a squad of grotesques. If you're going to use grotesques i then suggest using their formation. that all up is a few hundred points in its self + their transport. Otherwise she could be in a venom with 4 sslyth. Though sslyth are more shooty oriented than Grotesques. I would suggest maby using an Archon or a haemonculus instead of the succubus if you dont have the body guards for her.
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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 20:39

OK i got the codex so I will be of better use now....

At first i looked at a Succubus w/ WWP and 3 grots... kinda pricey and i don't like how they stick out like a sore thumb. maybe if i had reserve manipulation.

Then Idealbroom mentioned Venom and a court of Sslyth... YES i like it! But that is an Archon's Court.  Where does it say i can buy this court for a Succubus? I dont see it. Maybe, you meant Archon which is cheaper to start and not much worse in the CC department still very admirable WS and I and same attacks.

So here it goes, 1002 points:

Archon
- Court: 3x Sslyth
- Venom + Cannon + Grisly Trophies

Warriors
- 5x Warriors
- Blaster
- Venom + Cannon + Grisly Trophies

Warriors
- 5x Warriors
- Blaster
- Venom + Cannon + Grisly Trophies

Warriors
- 5x Warriors
- Blaster
- Venom + Cannon

Warriors
- 5x Warriors
- Blaster
- Venom + Cannon

Reavers
- 12x Reavers
- 4x Caltrops
- 4x Blasters

More C&C Please! This has been a huge help!
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Idealbroom
Hellion
Idealbroom

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Join date : 2014-11-05

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 21:08

I believe you can take the court of the archon without needing an archon and that a succubus can join in the court of the archon as an IC. Anyhow a WWP with succubus and grots isn't seen as the best as they are an assault based unit so upon arrival they are a sitting duck. You could take a massive squad of grotesques and load them up with liquifier guns so they can flame some things upon arrival. Still putting them in a raider would be a better option as you have potential to get charge turn two that way.

Personally i wouldnt bother with the Grisly trophies and maybe put their points towards another sslyth. If you are putting an archon with sslyth how would you kit him out? You could give him a WWP and deep strike the entire venom with the sslyth in it into the back field to mulch something. If you're putting him with the sslyth might be good to give him a gun like a blaster and keep him shooty. 4 sslyth in a venom with a cannon will pump out a nice 24 poisoned shots.

I think that the 12 reavers may not need all the upgrades you have given them, maybe two less blasters or caltrops yet it depends on how you plan to use them. If you spread out the upgrades, 8 of the 12 models will be holding upgrades. you could have its only four with the blasters and caltrops on the same models. There is risk both ways.

I feel that the list somewhat lacks dedicated AT even though there are blasters around. Maybe a squad of trueborn with 4 blasters in a venom? or in a raider with an archon with a blaster and WWP. I would still consider scourges or ravagers as some dedicated AT. I have two ravagers which seem to do the job. 6 lances a turn are bound to put the hurt on if focused on specific targets.
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Deuce11
Slave
Deuce11

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 21:28

I worry about Ld8 although the GTs are expensive.  Maybe one GT to follow the Reavers would be worth it. That is a big expensive unit that you dont want fleeing off the board!

I thought the kitted reavers could handle AV.  You don't think so?

As discussed above, I have theory hammered scourges and if feel they either need to be run in two squads of 5 with 4 HWBs each (240 points) or one full squad of 10 and 4 HWBs (200).  It is a big investment either way and I assume I'll only get 2 hull points per four shots a turn.  I assume 5 guys will only survive one round of shooting.  10 guys might survive long enough to fire the HWBs at full strength for a second shooting phase.  Those are my thoughts.  Do your experiences match up?
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Idealbroom
Hellion
Idealbroom

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 21:47

I haven't personally used scourges so I cannot give any tested perspective, I just know they would require finesse.

Reavers could handle AV but if they get shot at you are going to jink with their 3+. this then renders their blasters near useless. This is why caltrops are often seen as the only upgrade on them as they are still useful the turn after jinking. maby 4 squads of 3 reavers each with one blaster could be good? as that way there will be most often be squads that haven't had to jink. Would need to test that, but i have personally only used reavers 3 times.
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Deuce11
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Deuce11

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 21:52

single shot AV is risky even at BS 4. my melta shots from marines have missed enough to know you cannot depend on it when you need it. I wish i was better at statistics so i could figure out if 12 bikes and 4 caltrops is massive overkill or not.
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Idealbroom
Hellion
Idealbroom

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 19 2014, 21:56

you would have a single shot from 4 separate squads if each had a blaster though. Just means the opponent cant knock out all their shooting power from targeting one large squad and making them jink.

I think that 12 bikes with 4 caltrops is fine and can still play as light tank hunters. would be 4xD6 s6 hits with rending on 6's
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Deuce11
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Deuce11

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 20 2014, 02:20

I see what you are saying. Also note that I understand the detachment stuff I see how the fast attack slots work
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Deuce11
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Deuce11

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PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 20 2014, 03:24

999

Succubus with glaive and haywire grenades
Archon court- 3x Sslyth
Venom with cannon, grisly trophy
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Deuce11
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Deuce11

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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 20 2014, 03:28

3x5x warriors in Venom with blaster and cannon

3x 3x reavers with caltrops

10x scourges with 4G HWBs
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long time marine player looking to dive into DE Empty
PostSubject: Re: long time marine player looking to dive into DE   long time marine player looking to dive into DE I_icon_minitime

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