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Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21 2014, 20:51

@sweetbacon wrote:
Am I the only one shocked that there are three (and counting) forum pages devoted to Hellions?  Because even if you are not sold on Reavers, surely, one can find a better use of the FA slot than Hellions...

Yes. They are one of the most beautiful models in the army (in GW's whole range, even) and the have some great fluff. I'm not surprised at all that people are interested in finding a valid way to use them. I'm just disappointed with our results so far. Very Happy
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Rokuro
Wych
Rokuro

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21 2014, 21:14

Okay. Since Dark Eldar apparently lack "good" units to initiate close combat, I looked to the Craftworlders for a solution, and found quite a few possible ones:

* Farseers/Spiritseers: There are two Telepathy powers that can interrupt Overwatch; Dominate and Hallucination. They depend on too many lucky rolls to be reliable though.

* Striking Scorpions: Grenades, 3+ armor, pseudo-HoW.

* Dark Reapers: Can have pinning missile, but lack in mobility.

* Warp Spiders: Greate mobility, but only the Exarch can have a pinning weapon.

* VWSBs with Vibrocannons/Night Spinners: Pinning artillery.

* Anything with an Eldar Rocket Launcher: Pinning Frag and Krak Missile equivalents, twin-linked ones even when combined with a Scatter Laser.

Result: Craftworld Eldar heavy support units are pretty good at pinning things.


I know, it's a shame when you need allies to make something in your army work. Dark Eldar really should have an own solution to this.
But since I was planing on getting Craftworld allies anyway, I'm looking forward to trying out some combos of Eldar shooting with Dark Eldar assaulting, especially with Hellions.
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21 2014, 21:28

Actually Eldar combo hilariously good with our Vehicles.
Infiltrating/Outflanking Raider with Scorpions?
Lack of Mobility on Dark Reapers? Try the Venom of Doom with Dark Reapers embarked (Slow and Purposeful) with 12 poison and 10 S5 AP3 shots.

If you are just Looking for a good Initiator get Eldar Jetbikes.
Fast, durable, cheap and wont win a combat on their own.
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Rokuro
Wych
Rokuro

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 21 2014, 21:32

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Lack of Mobility on Dark Reapers? Try the Venom of Doom with Dark Reapers embarked (Slow and Purposeful) with 12 poison and 10 S5 AP3 shots.

That is a really good idea. Thanks! Smile
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Grimcrimm
Kabalite Warrior
Grimcrimm

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 22 2014, 04:40

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Actually Eldar combo hilariously good with our Vehicles.
Infiltrating/Outflanking Raider with Scorpions?
L


Only Dedicated transports get passengers special rules this cant work
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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 22 2014, 12:08

I think thats actually the "best" way to play Hellions. Dual charge with reavers, let the "soak up" the overwatch shooting and follow with Hellions

cheers
Caspaar
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Grimcrimm
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Grimcrimm

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 22 2014, 23:44

@Caspaar wrote:
I think thats actually the "best" way to play Hellions. Dual charge with reavers, let the "soak up" the overwatch shooting and follow with Hellions

cheers
Caspaar


This right here is the best solution ive seen yet

The reavers rely on HoW the hellions do not combine the two for massive damage
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 08:25

2 S4 Attacks is hardly "massive damage" (its about the same massive damage a SM Tac does on assault).
Half of the Hellions damage comes from shooting before going to melee which is completely prevented when the enemy is already bound in melee.
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Izaeus
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 08:38

Unless you shoot with the helions then charge with the reavers then charge with the helions though they probably wouldn't be needed then.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 09:31

Then you dont make up for the lack of grenades. Hellions attack with I1, so after the Reavers delivered their attacks the enemy just hits the hellions (who lack armor and T).
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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 10:41

Why would the Hellions be I 1?? You get into posision, hellions shoot. In the Close combat Phase, reavers charge followed by hellions
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 13:00

Lack of nades. Going for a unit behind cover.
If the unit is not in cover you really dont need the Reavers to go in first as both units cant compete with big units anyways and Overwatch from a small unit is rather pointless (especially after you shot them).
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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 13:28

Wasn't there a rule that said you'll only be I1 if the enemy unit is not engaged already, or is my memory failing me?

Cheers
Caspaar
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 13:37

There ist. It has to be engaged a full round.
So you can't charge the same round as the Reavers. And if you stay in combat with the reavers for a full round, you wont use your hit&run to break off and shoot/assault again.
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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 14:06

Aaah, my fault. Then your right. Than itll only fix the overwatch issues.
Better than nothing though. I guess if you really want to field hellions, this will be the best way (at least the HoW attacks wil be at I1)

Cheers
Caspaar
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Rokuro
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 19:39

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Then you dont make up for the lack of grenades. Hellions attack with I1, so after the Reavers delivered their attacks the enemy just hits the hellions (who lack armor and T).

Well, grenades matter only if the target unit is in cover. And if it is, the Reavers attack on I 1 as well.
Nevermind. Didn't see we're on the next page already.
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Grimcrimm
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Grimcrimm

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 20:23

@Caspaar wrote:
Aaah, my fault. Then your right. Than itll only fix the overwatch issues.
Better than nothing though. I guess if you really want to field hellions, this will be the best way (at least the HoW attacks wil be at I1)


HoW always hits at I 10
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Caspaar
Kabalite Warrior
Caspaar

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 23 2014, 20:55

Whoops, I know. Stupid phone, was a typo

cheers
Caspaar
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Bleaksoul Brethren
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 04 2015, 21:38

They are not useless the downside is for 3 points more reavers are so much better. I have about 15 of them and I use them from time to time. I've also done the formation that requires hellions (and they got their points back surprisingly killing a 5 man tact squad and finishing off 2 vanguard veterans) but if you expect them to get their points back you will be disappointed.
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Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 00:07

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
They are not useless the downside is for 3 points more reavers are so much better. I have about 15 of them and I use them from time to time. I've also done the formation that requires hellions (and they got their points back surprisingly killing a 5 man tact squad and finishing off 2 vanguard veterans) but if you expect them to get their points back you will be disappointed.

Barring support units like buff psykers or force multiplier HQs, this seems like the definition of a "bad" unit.
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 01:14

"getting your points back" is a very poor way to view playing a game of 40K. No games are won based on victory points. A 35 point rhino will never "make its points back" by killing 35 points worth of models (baring a very lucky tank shock... or something) but it MAY capture multiple objectives throughout a game, shelter your infantry from AI firepower for a turn or two, provide BLOS cover as you move up the board, etc.

A better way of thinking is to review whether a unit has "Served its purpose" - which would be to generally kill something dead, two or three somethings if you're lucky. Or score points - again, a 50 point cultist squad sitting on an objective turn 7 may win the game, hence why windrider jetbikes are "amazing" - they'll rarely kill anything, but sit on objectives like bosses.
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Jimsolo
Dracon
Jimsolo

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 01:44

I'll give you that. I neglected to think about transports (although I'd argue they fall squarely into the category of "support unit" that I mentioned) but hellions are only built to do one thing: kill enemy units. And they are poor at it, for their points.

I will, however, concede your point about "serving their purpose." Unfortunately, a hellion's purpose is combat.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 09:04

@clever handle wrote:
"getting your points back" is a very poor way to view playing a game of 40K.  No games are won based on victory points. A 35 point rhino will never "make its points back" by killing 35 points worth of models (baring a very lucky tank shock... or something) but it MAY capture multiple objectives throughout a game, shelter your infantry from AI firepower for a turn or two, provide BLOS cover as you move up the board, etc.

A better way of thinking is to review whether a unit has "Served its purpose" - which would be to generally kill something dead, two or three somethings if you're lucky.  Or score points - again, a 50 point cultist squad sitting on an objective turn 7 may win the game, hence why windrider jetbikes are "amazing" - they'll rarely kill anything, but sit on objectives like bosses.

There is a difference.
We have support units or force multipliers who do make their investment back in other ways.
Your Rhino is a good example of this.
It makes a unit more mobile, more durable, provides cover or BLOS and can score for just a few points.

The Hellions on the other hand are a combat unit. They don't do any of the things above (with the exception of scoring) and are way more expensive.
They also block a slot for Reavers who can do way more and are not even more mobile, more durable or better in combat.
They are even slower than our objective secured Venoms and Raiders.
They do not make their points back in any way you look at it.
If you decide to use Hellions, you basically decide to handicap yourself.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 09:22

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@clever handle wrote:
"getting your points back" is a very poor way to view playing a game of 40K.  No games are won based on victory points. A 35 point rhino will never "make its points back" by killing 35 points worth of models (baring a very lucky tank shock... or something) but it MAY capture multiple objectives throughout a game, shelter your infantry from AI firepower for a turn or two, provide BLOS cover as you move up the board, etc.

A better way of thinking is to review whether a unit has "Served its purpose" - which would be to generally kill something dead, two or three somethings if you're lucky.  Or score points - again, a 50 point cultist squad sitting on an objective turn 7 may win the game, hence why windrider jetbikes are "amazing" - they'll rarely kill anything, but sit on objectives like bosses.

There is a difference.
We have support units or force multipliers who do make their investment back in other ways.
Your Rhino is a good example of this.
It makes a unit more mobile, more durable, provides cover or BLOS and can score for just a few points.

The Hellions on the other hand are a combat unit. They don't do any of the things above (with the exception of scoring) and are way more expensive.
They also block a slot for Reavers who can do way more and are not even more mobile, more durable or better in combat.
They are even slower than our objective secured Venoms and Raiders.
They do not make their points back in any way you look at it.
If you decide to use Hellions, you basically decide to handicap yourself.

Well put.

I agree that 'making its cost back' isn't always a good representation of a unit.

But, for a unit with no support abilities whatsoever, there's not much else you can do.

Unless you instead want to go for 'are there any other units that can perform the same role better or for fewer points?' In which case, Hellions still lose badly.
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Jimsolo
Dracon
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions   Hellions - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 05 2015, 12:14

Yeah, pretty much. I started this thread to try to find ways to make them useful. At this point I'm giving up.
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