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 Covenite Coterie Detachment

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Count Adhemar
The_Burning_Eye
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 19:33

Does anyone use the Covenite Coterie Detachment, or do you just take one or more of the formations?

Mostly I'm just curious, since (especially with such limited options to begin with), the formations seem to cover most bases. So, I'd be interested in when/why you use the detachment instead?

Also, do you find the mandatory 2 HQs to be annoying - or is there always a good use for a second Haemonculus? Wink
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 21:28

I haven't used it yet, though I can see it being useful if nothing else for taking talos in sensible sized units - I have no problem with having five in a list but I'd rather they didn't operate as a single unit.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 21:52

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I haven't used it yet, though I can see it being useful if nothing else for taking talos in sensible sized units - I have no problem with having five in a list but I'd rather they didn't operate as a single unit.

Just checking but you do know you can take 1-3 Talos in a single unit normally?

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 22:13

I've looked at it a little bit and would love to field it at some point. I think it would be a pretty fun detachment to run; however, it has an obvious weakness as there's a lack of anti-air/anti-armor beyond haywire/lance Talos.

My other concern beyond that though comes from how Wracks function in the game. Wracks are great; however, getting the extra Ossafactor at 10 models means you can't take an IC if you plan on putting such into a Raider. If you take such with a WWP, then you have to decide on shooting or running (so you don't die to a blast/template next turn). In addition, with a minimum squad of Wracks now at 5 instead of 3, adding a Haemy to them prevents them from embarking on a venom. Though, you can always deploy the DT venom empty.

While I need to still run the numbers/build the list, the general idea that I'm leaning towards with such is to start with something like the below:

4x5 Wracks with Venoms
2x7-9 Wracks in Raiders (lance) accompanied by a Haemy
2x4 Grots in Raiders (lance) accompanied by Haemy/Urien

And then Talos units to round out the points. Perhaps taking 1 unit of wracks in venom and join them to a Haemy (WWP, LG) and add a LG to the unit in order to address any pesky "in cover" units.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 22:19

The wrack-size thing has been bugging me too.

If they were dedicated to making virtually every unit minimum-5, and also making some special weapons 1-per-5, they really should have upped the transport capacity of venoms and raiders.

6 models in a venom and 11 in a raider would not have broken the game.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 22:52

A couple of lists in my library necessitated taking a single unit of wracks and a single unit of grots, for which I used the Coterie, but I've yet to field any of them.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 09 2014, 23:36

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I haven't used it yet, though I can see it being useful if nothing else for taking talos in sensible sized units - I have no problem with having five in a list but I'd rather they didn't operate as a single unit.

Just checking but you do know you can take 1-3 Talos in a single unit normally?

Yup, my point was that if you only go with formations, to get Taloi you need to go either Dark Artisan or Corpsethief, and I'd rather take a couple of units of 2 and a single, for which you have to use the coterie (assuming you want to go coven only) as that way I can divvy up their fire as necessary instead of having to fire 5 (or just 1) at a single target.

As Talos basically provide the only ranged anti tank for coven armies i really wouldn't want to spend 600pts wasting 1 tank per turn when I could spread it out to be more effective over the whole game.

For example, let's assume that i take haywire blasters on all my talos, and they always hit and always just strip a hull point (it's not statistically accurate, but doesn't really matter for the example). If I take corpsethief, that's one normal tank dead per turn.

If i take two units of two and one unit of one Talos, I can strip 5 hull points from vehicles per turn, meaning that over a six turn game, the corpsethief has taken 6 3HP vehicles down. My separate units will have taken down 10.

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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 01:43

If you've got a super-vehicle heavy meta, that's probably the way to go. (And if you're looking at the difference between 6 and 10 vehicles, then your meta is probably pretty mech heavy.)

Have you considered allying in some additional ranged support from the main 'dex or from the Eldar?
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 02:29

In 6th edition my favorite HQ was a cheap vb liquifier haemie as a buffer in a gunboat (if unlucky a wych boat).

Now in 7th I didnt find my way to use the haemie (I dont have any Grotesques yet). So I dont see how I could use the Covenite Coterie Detachment 2 HQ effectively.

Maybe use 2 detachment: the Coterie + a main codex CAD. This way the Coterie haemies can give Fear, Fearless and freakish spectacle to 2 CAD units. The CAD can also bring AT to the coven units. You can use a Court in the CAD to avoid using 3 IC.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 11:14

@Mononcule wrote:
In 6th edition my favorite HQ was a cheap vb liquifier haemie as a buffer in a gunboat (if unlucky a wych boat).

I used to do exactly the same.

@Mononcule wrote:
Now in 7th I didnt find my way to use the haemie (I dont have any Grotesques yet). So I dont see how I could use the Covenite Coterie Detachment 2 HQ effectively.

Fair enough.

@Mononcule wrote:
Maybe use 2 detachment: the Coterie + a main codex CAD. This way the Coterie haemies can give Fear, Fearless and freakish spectacle to 2 CAD units. The CAD can also bring AT to the coven units. You can use a Court in the CAD to avoid using 3 IC.

Yeah, I feel the main codex CAD is pretty necessary.

However, what CAD units would you attach the Haemonculi to? I ask because this is a big problem for me, whenever I try to write a list with just the DE book. The only units I'd want to attach a Haemonculus to are the ones that are in the Coven book anyway - i.e. Wracks or Grotesques.

- Anything like Reavers or Hellions will just be slowed down by the Haemonculus.
- Bloodbrides are just as worthless as they were in the last book (arguably more so, in fact).
- Incubi... maybe. Not sure I'd choose them over Grotesques, and their survivability always bothers me, but I guess AP2 might make them worth considering.
- Scourges... possibly, if you're using Heat Lances (and want a WWP). But, I keep hearing that Haywire Blasters are better and they basically remove the need for a WWP.
- Wyches, I don't see the point over Wracks. I don't think a 4++ in combat is worth it when you have to sacrifice Poison (4+), T4 and the option of some decent ranged weapons.

What am I missing here? Neutral
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 11:33

HWB Scourges and HL Scourges are very different beasts.

HWB are very reliable at stripping hull points down, but the key part here is that they're unlikely to neutralise the tank unless they wreck it.

Heat Lance Scourges with a wwp are great against tank squadrons (like Pask) since you have the potential for damage to spill over from one vehicle to the next, and they're far more likely to neutralise a vehicle by forcing snap shots etc from penetrating results.

In an 1850 list I wouldn't prioritise one over the other, I take both because they have different target priorities. In 1500 lists i take the HWB version because I bring lots of lances which perform a similar job.

At smaller levels I'd probably go back to heat lances because of their versatility, S6 AP1 is better against other targets than S4 AP4 and the shorter range isn't crucial when you've still got a functional range of 30".

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 22:17

@The Shredder wrote:

However, what CAD units would you attach the Haemonculi to? I ask because this is a big problem for me, whenever I try to write a list with just the DE book. The only units I'd want to attach a Haemonculus to are the ones that are in the Coven book anyway - i.e. Wracks or Grotesques.

Good question, I don't have any obvious answer. Here's some ideas just for fun:

1) The court: for example, 3 sslyth, 2 medusas and the haemie. It is a well rounded squad, T5, 11 wounds, fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, fleet (with the sump), shooty and good in assault (but no grenades). If your Haemie is Urien, you can remove a sslyth and still have T5.

2) wyches... I know they are not popular, but with a reduced cost, a garanteed FC, fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, they are a even better tarpit unit than before. Add rage, a good combat drug and a tougher than before Haemie and it can be fun in casual games.

3) Incubi: they are killy enough by themselves, the haemie can act as a buffer and a meatshield (with sump for fleet).

4) Like someone said in another thread: mix Urien with an archon for a T5, WS7, 2++ 4++ unit with IWND. Maybe after wwp?

5) use both haemies as WWP carriers for Heat lances scourges. Then they act as a shield for the incoming fire (fearless also helps).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 10 2014, 22:55

@Mononcule wrote:

Good question, I don't have any obvious answer. Here's some ideas just for fun:

1) The court: for example, 3 sslyth, 2 medusas and the haemie. It is a well rounded squad, T5, 11 wounds, fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, fleet (with the sump), shooty and good in assault (but no grenades). If your Haemie is Urien, you can remove a sslyth and still have T5.

For some reason I'd completely forgotten about the Court. silent

@Mononcule wrote:

2) wyches... I know they are not popular, but with a reduced cost, a garanteed FC, fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, they are a even better tarpit unit than before. Add rage, a good combat drug and a tougher than before Haemie and it can be fun in casual games.

A few points:

- Wyches are the same cost as before - not cheaper.

- I really don't rate Fear. I see far to many units with Fearless ATSKNF for it to make the slightest bit of difference.

- I'm... dubious of tarpits. Especially when, like wyches, they cost as much (or more) as units that can actually fight back. Also, I'm wary of relying on a small squad with T3 to tarpit units. It just seems like there are too many things that will carve through them regardless.

@Mononcule wrote:

3) Incubi: they are killy enough by themselves, the haemie can act as a buffer and a meatshield (with sump for fleet).

I might give this a go.

@Mononcule wrote:
4) Like someone said in another thread: mix Urien with an archon for a T5, WS7, 2++ 4++ unit with IWND. Maybe after wwp?

Heh, yeah, this seems like something to try. I don't know if it will work, but it seems like a really fun tag-team. Twisted Evil

@Mononcule wrote:
5) use both haemies as WWP carriers for Heat lances scourges. Then they act as a shield for the incoming fire (fearless also helps).

Our HQs don't seem to have much in the way of self-preservation instinct, do they? Wink

It seems half of their tactics involve using them as shields for more valuable units.

Saying that, this is probably a good plan, though I wouldn't want to do it with my Warlord.

Thanks for the suggestions. Smile
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 11 2014, 06:48

@Mononcule wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:

However, what CAD units would you attach the Haemonculi to? I ask because this is a big problem for me, whenever I try to write a list with just the DE book. The only units I'd want to attach a Haemonculus to are the ones that are in the Coven book anyway - i.e. Wracks or Grotesques.

Good question, I don't have any obvious answer. Here's some ideas just for fun:

1) The court: for example, 3 sslyth, 2 medusas and the haemie. It is a well rounded squad, T5, 11 wounds, fearless, fear, freakish spectacle, fleet (with the sump), shooty and good in assault (but no grenades). If your Haemie is Urien, you can remove a sslyth and still have T5.

I'm afraid, but you cannot take Courts into a Coven Detachment :/
They are not included in the list of units you may take (sucks)...
And Sslyth don't have power from pain as well, so they couldn't possibly benefit from the alternative pfp table anyway.

I so wanted to have "It will not die Sslyth" Sad
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 11 2014, 10:25

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I'm afraid, but  you cannot take Courts into a Coven Detachment :/
They are not included in the list of units you may take (sucks)...
And Sslyth don't have power from pain as well, so they couldn't possibly benefit from the alternative pfp table anyway.

The idea was to take a DE CAD as well.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I so wanted to have "It will not die Sslyth" Sad

Well, to be fair, Grotesques are pretty similar - and they can certainly benefit from the new table. Twisted Evil
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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: Covenite Coterie Detachment   Covenite Coterie Detachment I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 12 2014, 00:16

@The Shredder wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions. Smile

Youre welcome! I also plan to try a few of these once I got my wracks Smile

About the wyches cost: in my point of view they are cheaper because in 6th they costed 12 pts each as haywire was mandatory, even if sometimes in some games the wyches were used as a tarpit (after the tanks were down for example, or to slow down a deathstar).

Now, they cost 10 flat. Yes, they are a lot worse as an unit than before: they lost their main use. But as a tarpit I see them as cheaper Smile

####

I really need to do more playtesting with the Court. I'm still a new player, but I still think there is a gem hidden somewhere...
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