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Dark Lance
Hellion
Dark Lance

Posts : 29
Join date : 2014-10-08

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PostSubject: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 23 2014, 12:59

Gents,

Locally, I play against a mix of armor hvy (Imperial Knights, Steel Legion) or Chaos Daemons but play the full range of armies.  While I have beaten armor heavy opponents, I have yet to defeat Chaos Daemons.  What happens is slow games (intentional or not) that maybe go 3 rounds and in that time my opponent has summoned maybe 5 units of daemons.  It takes me too long to get to his psychers that are summoning.  

That said, I'd like to be balanced.  Here is my answer.  I look forward to any comments.  Thanks.  

Eldar CAD

Farseer (bike, spirit stone of Anath tan, singing spear)
Fire Dragons x 5
Fire Dragons x7
Windrider Jet bikes x 6 (2 shurican cannons)
Windrider Jet bikes x 6 (1 shurican cannons)
Warp Spiders x 8
Hornet Squadron x 3 (2 Pulse Lasers each)

DE Real Space Raiders Detachment

Succubus (Archite Glaive, HW Grenade, Armor of Misery)
Kab Warriors x 5 (raider with Dist Cannons)
Kab Warriors x 5 (raider with Dist Cannons)
Reavers x9 (arena champion, 3 heat lances, 3 CC)
Reavers x6 (arena champion, 2 blasters, 2 CC)
Raider (TGL)
Venom (x2 SC)


So, this list is fast and shooty.  The DE reavers and Succubus are my limited close combat options.  The Fire Dragons mount up on the spare raider and venom.  The hornets give me 12 Str 8 AP2 shots at 48".  In my mind the list is fairly flexible and as a kicker, I might summon daemons as well.

What do you think?
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Thor665
Archon
Thor665

Posts : 5526
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Venice, FL

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 23 2014, 16:20

@Dark Lance wrote:
I have yet to defeat Chaos Daemons. What happens is slow games (intentional or not) that maybe go 3 rounds and in that time my opponent has summoned maybe 5 units of daemons. It takes me too long to get to his psychers that are summoning.
I am not sure why that is happening to you - with 1-2 turns I am usually of the opinion that I have access to the entire board with my DE between movement and range.
I will admit looking at your list you seem to be pretty focused on lower range options, which might be hurting you, but you still seem to have more than enough speed to pick out and bully psykers that are trying to hide.

Also, what style of games are you playing? Summoning daemons for 3 rounds hardly equates to 'winning' especially if the game is kill points. Even if the game is objectives - if he's hiding his psykers so well they have to be buried on his board edge in cover so I'm not sure where the summoned daemons are even going where it matters to you.

Could you clarify how he's winning? That will help us offer better advice to you than simply critiquing an army list.

@Dark Lance wrote:
Farseer (bike, spirit stone of Anath tan, singing spear)
Fire Dragons x 5
Fire Dragons x7
Windrider Jet bikes x 6 (2 shurican cannons)
Windrider Jet bikes x 6 (1 shurican cannons)
Warp Spiders x 8
Hornet Squadron x 3 (2 Pulse Lasers each)
You're floating in Eldar Allies without Wave Serpents? cheers The balls on you! That's awesome.

I would probably trim a Spider or Dragon squad to toss the extra shuricannon on the Windriders. What 7 Fire Dragons can kill I'm pretty sure 6 can also kill. Same with 8 or 7 Spiders. On the flip side, the speed and firepower output of the Windriders is very much affected by +1 shuricannon.

@Dark Lance wrote:
DE Real Space Raiders Detachment

Succubus (Archite Glaive, HW Grenade, Armor of Misery)
Kab Warriors x 5 (raider with Dist Cannons)
Kab Warriors x 5 (raider with Dist Cannons)
Reavers x9 (arena champion, 3 heat lances, 3 CC)
Reavers x6 (arena champion, 2 blasters, 2 CC)
Raider (TGL)
Venom (x2 SC)
So one Dragon unit in a Venom, another in the Raider, the Farseer with the big unit of Reavers...is the Succubus going in the other Venom? Or with the Warriors? Or the Dragons? Literally no location seems to make sense for her, and she's pretty expensive. I guess with the HG you have to be sticking her in with the Fire Dragons for some reason...to threaten units that assault them to kill them I guess? And maybe for an invuln save if you assault with melta bombs a Knight or other Walker?

There is a waste of points and strategy with the Succubus - she doesn't combo well anywhere. Consider what a simple Archon+Blaster could accomplish there instead.

I see minimal value in taking the Champions for the bikes sans a special weapon - especially the unit joined to the Farseer who can use that leadership instead. At the very least I would drop that Arena Champ to a regular bike (that's some more saved points for a shuricannon, yeah? Wink )

I will admit I don't think it is worth the massive outpay of points to give them guns and caltrops - I will generally be using jink with them, so I see little value to having to pay for special guns to snap fire with.

@Dark Lance wrote:
In my mind the list is fairly flexible and as a kicker, I might summon daemons as well.
No, don't try that.
Also, specifically, you'll basically have very little chance of getting off any powers versus a daemon summoning list.

@Dark Lance wrote:
What do you think?
I would say your vague weakness versus daemons is you're paying for a lot of quality AP shots, and against daemons what you want is just raw output of shots.
That said, your list still looks capable of pumping out enough firepower to rip daemons apart and having enough sacrifice/distraction stuff to cause them some issues.

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Dark Lance
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Dark Lance

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 23 2014, 17:14

Thanks Thor for taking your time on this one.

My sample size on fighting Chaos Daemons is small. Once I was defeated by a player who had 20 flesh hounds that he was able to consistently buff to a 3++/4+ Fnp using Psychic powers and the Grimoire of true names. If you do the math, that is one tough unit to kill. He was able to multi-charge me while the psychers were shrouded in ruins behind Plauebearers of Nurgle and/or flying behind LOS blocking ruins. This was a solid defeat. In the second game against a different player, he had 4 or five psychers with a familiar that allowed him to reroll failed casts. In both games, we play tactical objectives and an eternal war scenario. In the second game, I sat back and shot for two turns before getting in range for CC and my opponent was able to sit on 4 objectives and collect more tactical objectives than me. If we'd gone on, I still had good opportunity to win but time was called.

At this stage, I am constantly experimenting and playing to gain experience. I like this list because I think there are 8 units that can clearly threaten at least medium armor (I will pick up that second shurican cannon).

I think your right about the succubus and I began with him/her with the thought that she would go in with the fire dragons to offer some deterrence. She's got the armor of misery on her and I've got a TGL on a raider. I might move it to a Kablite raider in order to spread out the assets.

Lately, I've lost several archons with shadow fields surprisingly early in the game. Misssed a save against STR 6 weapon and insta gib. I have not yet played a succubus so I'm interested. I guess Urien could do a lot of stuff and he is 25 points more than the Succubus. I could take of the TGL and find the 10 more points quite easily.

In regards to the farseer. The stone lets him summon daemons on just 2 warp charges and he can recast a failed roll one time in the game + the ghost helm gives him some more protection on perils. In my mind, he may or may not be good against daemons but against other armies the eldar could move forward and generate daemons to sit on objectives in the backfield or flank.

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Javorra
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Javorra

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Join date : 2014-10-16
Location : Italy

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 23 2014, 17:51

I would drop the farseer for an autarch. I usually prefer to have a small reserve manipulation over 3 psy point, especially against heavy psy lists.
For the other points, I agree with Thor about the guns on DE bikes (they will jink most of the times) and champions, drop them to gain points to spend on other units and more venom shots. U could for example max the warriors on raiders and add splinter racks. When every raider pulls out 20 TL venom shots to the flesh hounds they suffer lots of damage. And in case the raider is forced to jink you'd only fire 10 in rapid fire distance. With only 5 kab I usually prefer venoms, they can move 12" and fire 12 venomous shots and are easier to hide.
Also I mainly see the succubus in a killy assault unit like grots, with lost of W to keep her alive, in your list a cheap archon would be better, especially with a WWP to stick with dragons. As you are playing against daemons, what about the helm to DS next to the enemy psyckers? It should be annoying if paired with a shooty unit, like a unit of guards maybe.
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Dark Lance
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Dark Lance

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 23 2014, 22:08

Gents,

Good comments. My list is still an all-comers list and so I've made some slight modifications without yet play testing. New List

Farseer (bike)
Fire Dragons x 5
Fire Dragons x 5
Windrider jetbikes x 6 (2 shurican cannons)
Windrider jetbikes x 6 (2 shurican cannons)
Warp Spiders x 8
Hornet Squadron x 3 (ea with 2 Pulse Lasers)

Realspace det

Haemonculus
Kab warriors x9 (raider Dis Cannon, splinter racks)
Kab warriors x10 (raider Dis Cannon, splinter racks)
Reavers x9 (3 heat lance, 3 CC, arena champion)
Reavers x6 (2 blasters, 2 CC, arena champion)
venom (x2 SC)
venom (x2 SC)

The farseer lost his stone of Anath tan; the fire dragons now fit into the venoms, the jetbikes have 2 Shurican cannons; 1 replaced the Succubus with a vanilla Haemonculus, maxed the kab warriors on boats with splinter racks. In regards to reavers my jury is out. That said, I think 10 points for LD9 +1 attack is worth it. Right now, I love AP2 against the chapter master on a bike, thunderwolf cav, any SM army, rip tides, missile sides, etc... I spoke about daemons because I knew I had to get more shots in. The warp spiders, 2 boats and 2 venoms should help in this regard.

Thanks much for input so far.


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Thor665
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Thor665

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Join date : 2011-06-10
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR   1850 All rounder Tournament DELDAR I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 24 2014, 00:31

You're wasting your HQ slots right now, as neither is particularly aiding your army. HQs are dumb expensive and usually there to either be beatsticks or to buff the rest of the army, I feel yours accomplish neither.

The Farseer is marginally okay as long as the enemy has no psykers, and is almost just there as a leadership buff to the bikes and nothing else.

The Haem is there to...what? Make a unit of Warriors who will never want to get out of their boat have FNP against the explosion if their boat is ever destroyed?

I would suggest you drop both of them. For +5 points the Haem can become an Archon w. Blaster - this is then a quite solid unit to have sitting with your Fire Dragons as he is a good anti-tank shooty unit and will make them more dangerous. He can also be added to the Warriors, as set, and also be a good firepower boost for them in shooting high armor opponents.

The Farseer - I agree with whoever suggested you take an Autarch instead. You could save points and give him a laser lance, or that strength boosting sword, and have him be a solid beatstick tool for your RJBs, or give him a fusion pistol or something if you want to shoot, or both. The Autarch is a pretty adaptable warlord, and really equates to an Archon on jetbike nowadays, in my opinion.

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