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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 17:31

I absolutely would run more bare venoms as fast attacks if I had the slots left for them. As is, a lot of my lists are running 4 venoms with warriors in them just to get 2 detachments (and I often unload one or two of the squads on backfield objectives so the 40 points isn't wasted). The only bare ones I can usually squeeze in are if I take an Archon and then have him in a separate raider with medusae or firedragons.

Whether you use the deepstrike tactic or stay at range though, I'm still getting numbers that the 3 venoms (315 points) are outperforming the 2 gunboats (300 points) in damage output, speed, and survivability.
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Amornar
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 17:46

The archon venoms are a great option to get empty venoms to run around, especially if you are running wwp caddies or assault archons that would always deploy with another unit in their ride. One archon plus a free slot court of a single lhamean can get two venoms for only a 10 point tax above the transport cost. Two archons and two courts can net you 4 empty (or near empty depending on where the lhamean goes) venoms for only 20 points above the transports without taking up a single fast attack slot...win!
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Khordajj
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 18:49

@Amornar wrote:
The archon venoms are a great option to get empty venoms to run around, especially if you are running wwp caddies or assault archons that would always deploy with another unit in their ride. One archon plus a free slot court of a single lhamean can get two venoms for only a 10 point tax above the transport cost. Two archons and two courts can net you 4 empty (or near empty depending on where the lhamean goes) venoms for only 20 points above the transports without taking up a single fast attack slot...win!

This is pretty clever. Never thought about that. Certainly useful if you've already used all of your fast attack slots.

@lessthanjeff wrote:
Whether you use the deepstrike tactic or stay at range though, I'm still getting numbers that the 3 venoms (315 points) are outperforming the 2 gunboats (300 points) in damage output, speed, and survivability.

I agree with this.

Even if the purpose is to Deep Strike the Raiders, why aren't you just Deep Striking the Venoms?
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 19:32

@Khordajj wrote:


I agree with this.

Even if the purpose is to Deep Strike the Raiders, why aren't you just Deep Striking the Venoms?

Clearly you can deep strike the venoms, but the point i was making is that generally those who advocate using venoms also advocate using them at range, rather than close up like the gunboats.

I don't think I can really explain the issue any clearer than I already have quite frankly, but here goes.

  • I don't think that raider gunboats and venoms are an 'either/or' choice, in a fully balanced list i think you have both.


  • The venom slightly outperforms the raider in terms of points cost per kill in the raider's best performing range band, and works significantly better at longer ranges.


  • The venoms are less survivable than raiders (statistically this is a fact - it has one hull point less and even with the invulnerable save you will fail your first two attempts 1/3 of the time meaning you cannot equate the invulnerable save to a whole extra hull point).


  • Against weaponry that doesn't ignore cover, raiders can, and will, jink for a better cover save without affecting their anti infantry firepower. Venoms cannot do this, or their AI shooting drops to causing two hits on average, not including the passengers.


  • Raiders give you a longer range option against armour.


  • Raiders give you more resiliency against a bad set of 'to hit' rolls thanks to splinter racks.


  • Venoms give you more chance to avoid high volume S4 shooting, as they can hang back at range, but this means the unit embarked on it is unlikely to be shooting anything. It's also invalid if your opponent brings drop pods. Or bikes. Or shuriken cannons etc (heck even fire warriors can move 6" and be in range)


So in conclusion, both options have their advantages and disadvantages, and neither is a clear winner, so take what you feel works best for you. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 19:58

I'll way in with my own thoughts here:

Quote :
Raiders give you a longer range option against armour.

this is the killer right here. Despite what at first glance appears to be a large volume of available AT in a DE list.... it is an illusion. Since we're still stuck mostly in that "low number of high quality" shots mentality when compared to other armies (CWE, Tau, IG) we need to do what we can to bring as much to bear as early as possible. You can bring as much anti-infantry as you want, but if you can't get those marines out of their boxes it is all for not. If you face off against an ObSec drop pod army & need to clear 15HP of drop pods you need all the AT you can bring.

Ravagers die quickly. Scourge die VERY quickly. Reavers w/ heat lances die VERY quickly (even with jink, they just have a MEQ statline...) bringing as much AT that can engage turn one as possible is almost mandatory, unless you're playing in a meta that doesn't make significant use of pods, serpents, rhinos, LRBT, etc.

Absolutely the math & MSU style army lends to venoms over raiders, but that isn't to say that raiders aren't important to bring. The extra lance fire turn one is generally so much more important than being able to plink off an extra 2-3 infantry casualties per turn.

In a meta where you need to be able to put 12-18 HP of damage throughout a game I would ask, what are you banking on to do that? If you can't get through the crunchy shell, you never get to the sweet candy inside... and it takes a dozen dark lance equivalents to have a reasonable (~82%) to kill a single AV12 vehicle in a turn of shooting.

So turn one, you move up 2 units of haywire scourge, and them plus a ravager each are able to account for what? 6 total hullpoints (assuming no cover or invul saves to be had... yeah right!),
Turn 2 your scourge are gone since a single unit of rapidfiring bolters has a good chance to disintegrate that unit (let alone anything S6 or AP4!) now what? You've lost the ability to strip 4-6 HP per turn. Your enemy still probably has 9-12 hullpoints left on the table... how are you going to deal with those?

I have to say that in 6 years of playing dark eldar, never once have I felt that I've been at a loss of anti-infantry based firepower, however I can't count the games where my lances have gone all NERF on me & I've been cursing the dark gods.


Long post... not much math or even anecdotal evidence... I would just suggest keeping a "holistic" list building approach, in lieu of examining only the effectiveness per point of each model - ultimately, I don't care how effective my opponent's unit is at its role; my job is to prevent it from being able to accomplish its role..... that means, as I said above, you gotta crack open the egg to get at the yoke inside=)
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 06:16

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:



  • The venoms are less survivable than raiders (statistically this is a fact - it has one hull point less and even with the invulnerable save you will fail your first two attempts 1/3 of the time meaning you cannot equate the invulnerable save to a whole extra hull point).



  • Raiders give you more resiliency against a bad set of 'to hit' rolls thanks to splinter racks.


So in conclusion, both options have their advantages and disadvantages, and neither is a clear winner, so take what you feel works best for you. Smile

I agree that Raiders definitely still have a purpose and their own advantages, but I want to make sure you're not comparing them 1 to 1.

The reason I say the venoms are more survivable is because if you're taking a pretty equivalent cost of them to the gunboats, you get the same number of hullpoints but spread across 3 targets instead of just 2 and have the extra protection against "ignores cover".

For the statistical control, I believe rolling 66 shots at the 0-12" range would be better mathematically than rolling 40 shots and getting to reroll misses because even if you miss with half your shots, you'd still only be getting 60 chances total to make the shots connect. That also leaves out the odds of all the possibilities where the venoms could get 41 hits, 42 hits, 43 hits, etc while the raider is capped at 40 even under perfect rolling.

Another comparison that I think should be made is that the Venoms can move 12" without significantly reducing their output since the passengers are not the primary source of damage while the raider is going to be trying to move only 6". Of course, as you said this does affect the output the other way when you have to jink and the venom is more adversely affected. It definitely makes it more important to get true cover saves when possible so you don't have to jink.

Interestingly, I always thought the gunboats would have better odds of taking down flying monstrous creatures because of the rerolls on hits, but when I just mathed it out I actually came out with a slight advantage in favor of the venoms still. Not a big deal, but it was definitely an assumption I always made and was going to list as a pro-gunboat point.

I still love raiders and agree that people should just take what they like more, but I can't bring myself to take gunboats over venoms if my goal is anti-infantry.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 06:41

I completely see where you're coming from there. I personally wouldn't take a venom squad without a blaster because I've been in games before where my transports are down and I'm stuck with no anti-tank but yes, the venom output is statistically higher.

I think the conclusion to draw perhaps is that gunboats and venoms are both ways of providing your army with anti infantry but each brings its own advantages and disadvantages that mean they aren't directly comparable - which you take will depend on what you're taking them for, which includes game factors such as secondary utility, survivability, general game strategy etc - does that seem reasonable?

Not sure where you're getting your maths for the FMC though, at ranges <12" - anything above this the venom will clearly win through more shots - the gunboat should hit 3 times before re-rolls and at least twice more with re-rolls (probably 3 more in most cases) for 5-6 hits. The venom at the same range with 5 splinter rifles also firing should average out at slightly less than 4 hits (22 shots).

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 09:20

Thor,

For the Venom squad with Blaster, how aggressive are you hunting tanks? With my Venoms, I have typically stayed at range to provide additional durability. The bravery of being out of range.

If you are more aggressive and moving the Venom up, how do you mitigate return fire? Simple MSU multiple targets and pick the scariest one?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 11:27

@Myrvn wrote:
If you are more aggressive and moving the Venom up, how do you mitigate return fire? Simple MSU multiple targets and pick the scariest one?
36" range is all well and good to "mitigate" fire, but I actually consider it a false goal most of the time. Even presuming I am exactly 36" away from my foe how many weapons am I actually out of range of? Most heavy and assault weapons have a range or a range+movement equal to or greater than 36" Even something as simple as the bolter, which can certainly glance us from the sky in numbers, has a functional range of 30" So I have, what, a 6" safety bubble to hide in to try to avoid the basic bolter?

To my mind, the answer is quite simple - the best defense is offense, and I went MSU for a reason.
At the end of the day my primary goal is to inflict damage on my opponent. I have a lot of guns, and a lot of bodies, and I want to use them to stomp the life out of my opponent. I want the blasters and the s.rifles and everything else to be killing my foes.

Now, yes, I don't intentionally place my entire army into his sight - but I recognize that he is going to be able to threaten a number of my vehicles and units. That said, they are all relatively cheap, and though he might toast a couple my goal is to have hindered him enough via the damage I caused him that he cannot, in turn, disable enough of me to stop my further dismantling of him.

As such, tl:dr answer - I am aggressive with my Blasters. I paid 15 points a pop for those things - I want to shoot them every round! Wink

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 12:00

Makes sense. I guess I have tried to keep the venoms in the back to have other units closer / more threatening. Not to physically remove the danger, but to have them drop down priority list. Doesn't work against all generals, but I am surprised how many people will shoot the closest threat.

I may tinker with a more aggressive approach and see how it goes.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 12:45

Just a thought Thor, is your TAC list in the army list section so we can see how it works?

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 12:56

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Just a thought Thor, is your TAC list in the army list section so we can see how it works?
I don't have a set list, nor have I ever posted up a list for critique on this site. If you look around I'm sure you can find examples of my lists in batreps or tactic discussions though, so you could see some of the basic ideas to them. Short answer - MSU Razz

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 15:55

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
I completely see where you're coming from there. I personally wouldn't take a venom squad without a blaster because I've been in games before where my transports are down and I'm stuck with no anti-tank but yes, the venom output is statistically higher.

I think the conclusion to draw perhaps is that gunboats and venoms are both ways of providing your army with anti infantry but each brings its own advantages and disadvantages that mean they aren't directly comparable - which you take will depend on what you're taking them for, which includes game factors such as secondary utility, survivability, general game strategy etc - does that seem reasonable?

Not sure where you're getting your maths for the FMC though, at ranges <12" - anything above this the venom will clearly win through more shots - the gunboat should hit 3 times before re-rolls and at least twice more with re-rolls (probably 3 more in most cases) for 5-6 hits. The venom at the same range with 5 splinter rifles also firing should average out at slightly less than 4 hits (22 shots).

Oh I definitely think those are reasonable things to say. That's why I was just saying we should try to set different criteria and then crunch the numbers for different cases and list out the advantages for each so people could more directly compare which they'd rather have based on their priorities and plan for the units.

For the FMC calculation, I was still running from 2 raiders vs 3 venoms to balance out the points. The raiders are getting 40 shots but have an 11/36 chance to hit while the venoms have 66 shots but have a 1/6 chance to hit. I didn't write down what I computed this morning (I should definitely stop logging on at 5 am because I'm not a morning person), but I must have done something weird or switched the numbers because I am getting the raiders just ahead of the venoms now which was what I'd expected.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion   Raiders vs Venoms General Discussion - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 14 2014, 16:15

ok cool, might set up a poll then to see what alternatives people would like to see calculated.

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