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Thor665
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punk possum
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 16:42

Hi in the normal course of things I play either Ravenwing or Nightlords themed CSM's.
But to be but to be honest I'm finding power armoured forces a bit stale. So with my enduring love of all things pointy eared in WFB this lead me to Craftworld Eldar or their darker (purer?) cousins.
The list that I've come up with is themed around the cult of the red grief I don't expect it to be super competitive but hopfully a challenge to play...
So after all that I would appreciate any feedback from the more experienced Achron's/ Succubi out there.  

HQ:
Myshella Drak
Succubus
Armour of misery
Archite Glaive
Webway portal

Troops:
Hope's lash
10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agoniser
haywire grenades
1x Hydra gauntlets
1x shard net and impaler
Raider with shock prow

The lost
10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agoniser
Haywire grenades
2X Hydra gauntlets
Raider with night shields

Elites:
The shrine of shattered dreams
3 Incubi
venom
2x splinter cannons

Fast attack:
The swift slaughter
3 Reavers
Caltrops
Heat lance

The tangled thorn
3 Reavers
Caltrops
Blaster

The unkind skies
Razor wing jetfighter
Dark lances
Splinter cannon
Monoscythe missiles
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 17:36

punk possum wrote:
I don't expect it to be super competitive but hopfully a challenge to play...
You're playing Wyches - mission accomplished Laughing

Okay, so, my core advice is 'don't play Wyches' Wink
Beyond that, here are my thoughts to make this Wych force as good as it can be.

punk possum wrote:
Myshella Drak
Succubus
Armour of misery
Archite Glaive
Webway portal
I will admit that I don't really get the point of the Armor here. Lots of people seem to like that on their Succubus for...reasons. I dunno, fear of flamers? By the time it ever matters, as far as I can tell, her entire unit will be dead and gone anyway, so...why does it matter?

In a general sense I oppose the armor, I don't think it helps much.

punk possum wrote:
Hope's lash
10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agoniser
haywire grenades
1x Hydra gauntlets
1x shard net and impaler
Raider with shock prow
Just make sure you are aware that what you are buying is 1 Haywire grenade, and only 1.
Also, the shard net is a terrible weapon - hydra gauntlets are substantially superior against basically all types of foes as far as 'killing' goes. I'd advocate taking 2x Gauntlets and leaving the shardnet at home.

punk possum wrote:
The lost
10 Wyches
Hexatrix
Agoniser
Haywire grenades
2X Hydra gauntlets
Raider with night shields
And here you take 2x Gauntlets - so I'm not sure what the net plan is above.

punk possum wrote:
3 Incubi
venom
2x splinter cannons
Your home for the Succubus - this is okay.

punk possum wrote:
3 Reavers
Caltrops
Heat lance

The tangled thorn
3 Reavers
Caltrops
Blaster
I think the guns are a bit of a waste on a unit that will basically constantly be jinking, that said you probably do need the extra anti-tank.

punk possum wrote:
Razor wing jetfighter
Dark lances
Splinter cannon
Monoscythe missiles
This is okay.


Looking at your list what I see is that it is basically all about killing infantry with very minor anti-mech touches.
How often do you see vehicles on your opponent's side of the table? And how many?
If your opponent is going to drop out even just, say, 2-3 vehicles - then this army is going to have a massive upward hill struggle to overcome and defeat them.
I also feel a little bit of 'grab bag' design here, though I presume that's because you're new to the army and are trying out a few different upgrades to see how they treat you.
Finally, I see Space Marine design syndrome here - where the idea of 2x Troops is all well and good and final. With DE...not so much.

What I would tend to advocate is dropping a few superfluous upgrades and the Razorwing and floating in a Ravager, and some lances on the Raiders (and maybe even an empty Raider w. lance) You need to enhance your ability to de-mech your opponent so that your assault crews can...sorta do what they can sorta do.

If you play in a very mech-lite environment then the list is probably okay as stands.

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punk possum
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 09 2014, 01:46

Wow thanks,
ok so no armour of misery that does free up 15pts for dark lance upgrades on my raiders, the thought process was I don't want to cough up a soft slay the warlord but I guess with her riding in the venom with her incubi buddys that's not such a concern...

As to the plan with the net? well in truth there isn't one I just like the model Embarassed

My hope with the haywires was to either do a bit of drive by 'nadeing to finish off mech units that the razorwing has picked on or to support the reavers in the anti armour role that they may just get the chance to perform.

At the 1000pts level I don't find that many mech units, dreadnaughts and rhinos mostly with the odd land raider crusader/redeemer.

Should I be looking at more troops maybe in smaller squads?

you are absolutely right in that I'm trying out ideas right now.
I'm getting the feeling that basing my army theme purely on aesthetics' is not going to win that many games Wink
I will have 20ish kabalites too so is that a better way to go?
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 09 2014, 06:29

punk possum wrote:
I will have 20ish kabalites too so is that a better way to go?  
Well, that depends - do you want a Wych Cult army or no?

Wyches, straight up, are one of the worst things in our codex right now. They have been designed poorly and do not particularly perform any role well, much less they are in a game edition that already works against the role they theoretically are supposed to do. That leaves them in a weird lurch position where they are fragile, expensive, and weak hitting - not exactly a prime combo of win Laughing

The real question is - do you want to run wyches because you want to run wyches.
Or do you want to run DE and happen to generally like wyches but are not really married to the idea.

If the former - well, then prepare for some games on hard mode, but you can try to make it work.
If the latter - then, yes, I would advocate choosing either Kabal or Coven as your base as both are more competitive than Cult.

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 09 2014, 17:40

I'll throw in my opinion although I can't match thor for experience I do have one game with a wych cult themed army at 1.5k that went well

If you want competitive then no, probably not the cult, but viable yes I think so.

I went with a very similar list and my 1k list is also similar to yours.

On the succubus I agree armour of misery little point but I'd also drop the web portal as it further delays you succubus hitting combat. Without it you're likely in combat turn 2 but with it you land (best case) turn 2 and get shot for a turn before charging turn 3 at best. I'd drop it for this list it's normally used with something that can drop and shoot

I'd also drop the splinter cannon on the razorwing unless you see a lot of flying monstrous creatures as generally you'll be firing at tanks because you need those lances, if you're firing at infantry you'll want to use your missiles instead.

I totally think you'll win some games it depends on how competitive for meta is. Wyches charging t3/4 with furious charge and combat drugs can be very nasty
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 01:54

I would advise to follow the suggested budget cuts.
I would invest in 3x hydras as they improve damage output by RR.
I must say that I agree that Wyches are a sub-optimal in point effectiveness. They are dependent on drugs to be able to kill something.
So I would take a decent hammer unit to finish off CC.
IMHO you always take the Klaivex. His point effectiveness is sickening.
For AT I would suggest Hayscourge.
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 08:44

why the Klaivex?

From what I can see you're paying 10 pts for an extra attack (considering ws and i to be minor gain) when for 20pts you get an extra wound as well an extra 2 attacks (3 when charging)

Am I missing something?

I appreciate some might push for him to be included, but I certainly don't think he's "sickening" (just my opinion)

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 09:18

The klaivex has certainly got better, remember he gets rampage so that additional d3 attacks if you are outnumbered can be nice. But I would only suggest that if you have the space!

All the wych advice is solid here. I also like/liked to run wyches and now you really do have to watch the antitank even at small levels! I would certainly agree that the razorwing could be shaved here. Instead I would stick on a ravager so you can pop some tanks early, you have enough anti infantry for 1000 points here!

I would very much watch out for just how fragile wyches are. Think of them as less good ork boys! You will have a hard time, no doubt but if you can get them into assault, with the reavers helping to soften up the units it might be ok. If you assault units with a squad of reavers and a squad of wyches that will be your best bet. You really don't want to be hit back. But at the same time, you want to be in combat during the opponents combat phase so you don't get shot. Be prepared to lose an entire 10 man squad to a single round of shooting!

But it can be done with a bit of practise. One thing you have to bear in mind is the combat drug roll, 50% of the time its useful enough to make wyches semi-viable. The rest of the time you will have a bad day!

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 10:17

ahh forgot rampage, good shout that makes a difference

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 16:29

Thanks every one for your help,
I certainly have a bunch to think about.
The thing that drew me to DE over their craftworld cousins was the new succubus model and the wych's now I'm finding out they are a bit pants.Crying or Very sad
I have managed to get two of the old battalion boxes so I do have some kabalites...
That said I'm going to try out the cult first and then look at putting a kabal experimental force together. After all I wanted a change from Space marine warfare and they are about as far away as I can get.
I'm on the fence about the razorwing vs Ravager my worry is 1 ravager is a bullet magnet if I don't get first turn I'll be jnking for my life and then snapshooting my main AT weaponary for the rest of the game. Where as the razorwing should get at least 1 turn of proper shooting albeit on turn 2 (hopefully) and being a flyer is a bit harder to shoot to start with.
edit: corrected grammer
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 16:51

punk possum wrote:
Thanks every one for your help,
I certainly have a bunch to think about.
The thing that drew me to DE over their craftworld cousins was the new succubus model and the wych's now I'm finding out they are a bit pants.Crying or Very sad
I have managed to get two of the old battalion boxes so I do have some kabalites...
That said I'm going to try out the cult first and then look at putting a kabal experimental force together. After all I wanted a change from Space marine warfare and they are about as far away as I can get.
I'm on the fence about the razorwing vs Ravager my worry is 1 ravager is a bullet magnet if I don't get first turn I'll be jnking for my life and then snapshooting my main AT weaponary for the rest of the game. Where as the razorwing should get at least 1 turn of proper shooting albeit on turn 2 (hopefully) and being a flyer is a bit harder to shoot to start with.
edit: corrected grammer

On the question of ravager vs razorwing - the key point (apart from points...) is two dark lances vs three.

three DL's should hit twice, and against AV2 should net you 1 hull point, and possibly a roll on the damage chart for a penetrating hit.

the razorwing however, with only two dark lances is a substantially worse lance platform as a result, and costs more.

If you're worried about jinking, keep the ravager out of los during deployment, you should be able to do that on a decent table (if not, then buy more scenery - you'll need it with DE!). It can move out 6" on turn 1 and still fire all its weapons at full BS (or move 12 and fire two at full BS and 1 as a snap shot)

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 17:00

As far as I'm aware unless you're standing still though I don't think you can fire all 3 any more? so when moving you have the same output as the Razorwing.

Can someone clarify the above for me?

I think the Razorwing is great, but I also love the model compared to the Ravager so I may be biased, also if this is a cult list the Razorwing fits the fluff whereas I don't believe the Ravager does

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 17:02

punk possum wrote:
The thing that drew me to DE over their craftworld cousins was the new succubus model and the wych's now I'm finding out they are a bit pants.Crying or Very sad
The Succubus is actually a pretty decent little HQ. She's not a world ender but the Glaive is a solid weapon, and with about 50% of the drug results she moves into a very solid mid range brawler for a quite reasonable amount of points.

@Stokie - you can move up to 6" and fire all the Ravager's weapons just fine. You can move over 6"-12" and fire two weapons at full BS and a third as a snapshot. So even moving at cruising speed the Ravager is packing more lances than the Razorwing.

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 21:07

Yeah more is always better! Plus at 1000 points, there wont be huge volumes of AT at great range so hiding a ravager behind los blocking terrain should be sufficient. Also being AV 11 you have the most incredible armor against str 4 weapons! And as a new dark Eldar player you will soon find the annoyance of losing vehicles, even fliers, trust me, to bolter fire!

Plus turn 2 if you have a bunch of wyches running about and nothing to assault because the enemy is in lunchboxes you will want that Ravager!

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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 23:11

I find when you roll normally the succubus is a great little HQ provided you don't kit her out too much. I put her in the armour of misery (not for the save, but the leadership nerf) and stick her in a unit of 3-4 grotesques - i've used the unit three times now, the first she killed everything before the grots got to strike, the second she wiffed her attacks two turns in a row (8 misses from 9 attacks over 2 turns) but the sheer number of attacks the grotesques put out kept them in the fight and the third she went back to ruining everything she faced. The armour is just a bonus, if you only win combat by one all of a sudden your opponent is testing at -3, and you're I8 for the resulting chase.


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punk possum
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PostSubject: Re: newbie 1000pts wych cult list   newbie 1000pts wych cult list I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 24 2014, 23:18

Once more thank you all for your help.
I've now managed to get a game in, I did change my list a bit. I split the wyches into 4 5 dude squads 2 with Hexatrixes or should that be hexatixi? I swapped the shock prow for a night shield and the shard net for another set of gauntlets.
I'm about to put a battle rep up I was playing against Tau so if you want to know how I got on then check it out.
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