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 How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation

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egorey
The Duck of Death
egorey

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PostSubject: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 13:49


So with the old codex there were a few established ways to play our DE.

Darklight spam - everything in raiders and boats backed up by ravagers and tazorwings. MSU wracks as troops or MSU Warriors - all i9n venoms usually. You would not ever see 5 man wrack units in a raider ( scalpel formation).

WWP and reserves were not a common strategy. We have no reserv manipulation. We still do nott in the new codex. Yet WWP lists are popping up for comment all the time now.

Our traditional hammer units were beastapacks and grots. Sure the occasional list might use incubi. Seldom was a court ever seen. Well Grots improved and are still one of our go to options but hammers have drastically changed and the way we deploy them as well. People now use the court, incubi grots and even reavers as hammers.

HQs were archomns, heamies and often special characters. That has changed. Succubus is now a common choice - spevcial characters are rarely used.

Scourges are in. Reavers are in. Now reavers always were good but never got the hypw they are currently getting. Scourges dramatically improved with the access to more heavy weapons. They replace ravagers often enough s the go to AT.

So the old DE lists we generally saw were very mobile lists relying on sped and range to succeed. Generally they were supplemented with one or two hammers. This could still work well with the new codex. In fact jink has made these lists more survivable ... and yet. I look at the lists posted in the army list section and see a jumble of builds. Take the Cronos/Talos Haemie - you will never regret it. Grotesquerie for sure. Scalpel formayions are the best. Etc.Etc.

I'm all for using and testing new builds and the FNP in the coven formation is hot - I agree. But DE are not ever going to be a durable army. We have improved yes but I tread with caution. The old spam your dark light, keep your range and keep moving still seems a prudent template for DE.

So what has changed in your lists and how have you found your lists better? What is your game plan with DE these days? I now this is quite general. But I feel a reliance on the new coven formations, a reliance on WWPs and a dramatic shift might have inherent imbalances for DE. Share your thoughts.




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Myrvn
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 15:29

I've shifted to pure DE to try out the new codex. Prior, I had a Wraithknight to provide since durability and take some fire off of the other juicy targets. My main lists have been assault oriented with units I thought looked cool.

Changes have included a shift away from trying to assault turn 2. Not having FNP turn 1 and ability to get furious charge for second assault had massively changed the ability to survive s turn 2 assault.

Wyches were my primary anti tank. Now I find myself struggling with enemy armor and looking for alternative units. I'm guessing I'll bring an archon with Fire Dragons. I may cut off the fronts of the disintegrators and put on more lances.

Bikes are awesome before. I still love them, but I'm not sure how to equip them as I feel I over spend every game and don't use everything. However, having the options for each game has been great.

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Dark Lance
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 17:12

I'm experimenting with WWP and deepstrike list with an Autarch cousin. I had a few weak units on the table and 6 in reserve. Last night, rolled 4 -- 1s for reserves on turn 2 (2 airplanes, archon with wwp (w fire dragons), artisan formation and naked venom). Turn 2, I rolled another 2 - 1s. This is the second time in a few games I rolled 4 -- 1s on turn 2.

Then I started reading about deep striking nids. I'm getting a little concerned and trying to create a list that has enough oomph to deep stike as an option but maybe play fully deployed as well.
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Finn
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 17:26

In my game the only thing that really changed is that I will be fielding scourges now, as I love the models, have plenty of them and they are finally viable. Grotesques I have always used, so the new codex making them better will not change that. The second change concerns beastmasters. I have never used them, but now they will have their place in my army. But in the end , I'm still going for vehicle spam and lots of darklight.

I feel the formations are too expensive for what they bring to the table, maybe with the exception of Grotesquerie.

I strongly believe that we win or lose in our movement phase and it depends very much on how we use terrain. We cannot afford being shot back, we're too fragile. So, a perfectly played game involves overwhelmingly concentrated firepower wiping out key threats and keeping out of LOS from the rest of our opponent's army. That requires speed and there is no speed without lots of vehicles.

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Anterzhul
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 19:19

Well my wych cult list can largely join the banshees on the shelf Sad Beastpack nerfs and wyches losing HWG means my entire build is basically pointless now

I'll be using warriors and trueborn, all in venoms, backed up by large grotesque squads and probably razorwings and some scourges

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeSun Nov 09 2014, 16:16

That's a very 5th ed attitude Finn. The Coven formations taken individually might not do much, but take a few of them, get the Master Of Pain everywhere, get a big Grotesquerie with Urien, distract with a Scalpel Squadron or two, anchor it all with a big solid Scarlet Epicureans and just march up the table.
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Finn
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 06:09

Timatron, I'm not denying that it's an oldschool attitude, but still a very viable one. Maybe even more, as we have more AT options than before and tactical objectives really give us an edge. 7th ed is the first to really give me a reason to pay premium points for my army's speed and it further reinforces MSU approach. Given my point of view, it's easy to understand why I love the Realspace Raiders Detachment and why I do not see that much value in objective secured rule fo our troops.

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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 10:57

I can't really say I've changed much at all. Though it's hard to tell as I'm just starting fresh in an escalation league so 500 points isn't the best judge.

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 11:51

In my mind there are two major changes to our capabilities that change things up (deep strike on vehicles and deep strike counting as combat speed not sruising speed) - I've been playing with a heavy reserves contingent (Succy & Grots in raider, 2 gunboats, razorwing and scourges) and the ability to bring my gunboats down in rapid fire range without having to snapfire has been huge.

I think our games (well, this is my thinking at least) need to revolve around a couple of key methods too - focused dark lance and haywire blaster fire in the early turns to cripple armour, and then incoming massed poison fire once enemy troops are exposed.

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egorey
The Duck of Death
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 15:58


I find it interesting that DSing boats was always available in 6ed but rarely used - even at the start of 7ed - before the new codex it was rarely used. Suddenly it is hot. I'm not knocking this approach mind you. I also feel that realspace raiders is one of the stronger builds now but pretending that ObSec is meaningless is a bit of a push - it can hurt you in some missions and games.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 16:17

@egorey wrote:

I find it interesting that DSing boats was always available in 6ed but rarely used - even at the start of 7ed - before the new codex it was rarely used. Suddenly it is hot. I'm not knocking this approach mind you. I also feel that realspace raiders is one of the stronger builds now but pretending that ObSec is meaningless is a bit of a push - it can hurt you in some missions and games.

I tried it a couple of times in 6th, but the snap shots I felt made it unworkable. My DE were on the shelf when 7th came out as I focused on my Iron Fists but the results i've had in my games speak for themselves, so far my opponents are far more concerned about the gunboats than the rest of my army (and in fairness, I average about 18 hits with each so why wouldn't you be!)

I can very much see that obsec is important if you play maelstrom missions. Attitude at my (admittedly, modest sized) club though is that the drawing of cards for your objectives is a bit too random and they rarely get played.

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 10 2014, 18:27

To my mind, mobility has always been the key to success with Dark Eldar, and that remains the case. Mobility is what allows us to concentrate our firepower to overwhelm specific parts of the enemy line or to pulverise problem units whilst trying to avoid as much retaliation as possible by staying out of range or LOS of the enemy line. This is particularly true if you play maelstrom missions.

The specific tools may have changed (Ravagers and Hellions out, Reavers and Scourges in?), but the principles are still the same: hit hard, hit fast, play dirty. And that *should* be how to play a race of sadistic elves in space Twisted Evil

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 11 2014, 08:19

@egorey wrote:

So the old DE lists we generally saw were very mobile lists relying on sped and range to succeed. Generally they were supplemented with one or two hammers. This could still work well with the new codex. In fact jink has made these lists more survivable ... and yet. I look at the lists posted in the army list section and see a jumble of builds. Take the Cronos/Talos Haemie - you will never regret it. Grotesquerie for sure. Scalpel formayions are the best. Etc.Etc.  

Personally it depends on which subsect of the Dark Eldar codex you choose to be in your force.

Quote :

So what has changed in your lists and how have you found your lists better? What is your game plan with DE these days? I now this is quite general. But I feel a reliance on the new coven formations, a reliance on WWPs and a dramatic shift might have inherent imbalances for DE. Share your thoughts.

The Realspace Raid Detachment is the Dark Eldar's most preferable detachment to play with the other power armies, as the Fast Attack Slots holds so much options and answers to a lot of our problems. Scourges, Razorwing Jetfighters, etc......the Fast Attack Slot is our strongest slot and this formation allows us to use that slot to its fullest.

My army has turned itself into a full Kabalite army with Scourges, and although Haywire Wyches are awesome but I never had much love for Wyches and taking them out is quite easy for me.

Right now my 1850 pts army has 14 Dark Lances, 21 Blasters, 8 Monoscythe missiles and 48 splinter cannon shots to allow me to handle most of the power builds out there. So far I had success against Tau with this list, and Marines are not a problem at all while I am looking forward to use this list against Eldar to find out its true value. It helps that my list is extremely manoeuvrable and allows me different vectors of attack.  

The Corpsethief Talon is a cool formation, and I had the most fortunate case with me being able to get the Master of Ambush trait on them. Combined that with the scouting move and some LOS blocking terrain, I managed to press the whole formation into the Tau's throat and just went about killing. But that saying, I still prefer my Realspace Raiders Detachment list than my Corpsethief list due to it being a little more stable.

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krayd
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 13 2014, 15:08

HQ costs have gone up a little, as I used to just take one haemonculus (the non-ancient, cheap kind) as my HQ, in order to make more room for other stuff in my army.

I will also need to actually get around to assembling a Chronos so that I can field a dark artisan formation.

I'll probably field more jetbikes than I used to, because they're cheaper.
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PostSubject: Re: How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation    How are you playing DE with the new codex - a philosophical reorientation  I_icon_minitime

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