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Dark Lance
Hellion
Dark Lance

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PostSubject: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 20:55

So, Im building the Dark Artisan Formation and looking at the CC options on TALOS. I looking at the rules and figuring that I'm reading something my way and not as it is played. Please let me know.

The Ichor Injector gives you fleshbane, lethal dose and the Smash special rule for monstrous creatures makes all these atks AP2. If these devise still gives the bonus atk for 2 CC weapons, then 5 STR7 atks WS 5 wounding on 2s, AP2, with instant death on 6s on the charge?

If you add chain flails, do you declare what weapon you are using or does the shred benefit flow over to the Ichor Injector as well?

Thanks in advance.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 20:59

You must declare which weapon you are using at the start of combat. So you can use the Chain Flails or the Ichor Injector but not both at the same time (though having both would still yield you the bonus for having 2 CCWs)
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Klaive
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:06

I might be missing something but I thought you could only replace one of the Talos cc weapons? That in effect would mean you should not be able to take both a chain flail and ichor injector on the same model?

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:09

@Klaive wrote:
I might be missing something but I thought you could only replace one of the Talos cc weapons? That in effect would mean you should not be able to take both a chain flail and ichor injector on the same model?

This is correct. I can see an argument but grammatically, it reads that you can replace only one weapon so you can't do both.

My reply was more focused on the general rule that you need to select a weapon - that you cannot get the benefits of both.
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Hovey
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:10

In dark Artisan Formation Talos goes to WS 6 and +1 initiative.

From what I can read you can only give a Talos only 1 of the fallowing options:
Ichor Gauntlet
Twin Linked Liquifier (which isn't a close combat weapon so essentially -1 Attack)
Chainflails
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Aroban
Kabalite Warrior
Aroban

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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:15

Quick question: does chainflails only grant rerolls against infantry or also vs vehicles?

Rulebook reads as only to wound rerolls in German

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:20

@Aroban wrote:
Quick question: does chainflails only grant rerolls against infantry or also vs vehicles?  

Rulebook reads as only to wound rerolls in German

Chain Flails give shred which allows you to reroll To Wound rolls made by the weapon with such. So it's only applicable on non-vehicle models.
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Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:43

I think the Ichor Injector is the best choice. 4-5 attacks at WS6, and instagib on a 6 to wound - all at ap2. Fantastic

That, coupled with the initiative increase and the fact that you'll have a 4+ FnP - you're taking the Spirit Probe on the Cronos right Wink - as well as being fearless and causing fear on occasion with its WS6, and It Will Not Die by the time it charges, It'll be a tough model to kill.

Man I love the Dark Artisan formation on paper, I can't wait to try it out, just need to get myself a cronos now!
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:59

I just need the haemie!

Ichor Injector all the way for me (and haywire blaster for guns), it's 2+ to wound against most things (sadly not walkers, but hey, can't have everything, right?) and instant death on 6's - bye bye Trigon Prime!

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Creeping Darkness
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 22:35

@Caldria wrote:
and It Will Not Die by the time it charges

Unfortunately the Talos doesn't have Power from Pain.

Incidentally, would you take the ichor injector over the liquifier when using the WWP?

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The_Burning_Eye
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 23:25

yes. S3 AP6 is what I'd manage to roll - I like my guns with unchangeable profiles!

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Hovey
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 23:26

I like running this unit with Webway Portal and 3x Flame Throwers. Its a lot of punch the turn they come down. Makes the unit scary to assault.

Twin linked Liquifier is rather Sexy, go re-roll to wound!
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Caldria
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 00:24

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Unfortunately the Talos doesn't have Power from Pain.

Incidentally, would you take the ichor injector over the liquifier when using the WWP?

Damn, my bad - man how did I miss that >.<

I'd still go with Ichor Injector every time, I've never been a fan of the liquifier anyway - not a fan of that much randomness (funny, cus I do love psychic powers with my other armies)

The Ichor Injector just really increases the threat level of the Talos, which is great as you'd rather have it taking the shots than your squishy kabalites and scourges/reavers etc.
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Lord Azrael
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 05:53

Flashbane and lethal dose sounds great and costs less then half a agonizer.
But how do you get 5 attacks? It has 3 base +1 for a second ccw. Don't you get only 5 at charging?
The downside of course is that the flashbane only trigger against non-vehicle/building units with toughness higher then 5 and with less then 6 attacks, ID would trigger less then once per round.

For the liquifiyer gun, it costs more then the injector, is only d6 and only strength 3. As a template weapon it can be verry good, but it relies on luck. And you loose one of your ap2 attacks as you only have one melee weapon left after buying it.
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Creeping Darkness
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 20:30

The liquifier being twin linked helps mitigate it's low S somewhat, but if you roll AP6 the turn you deep strike or haven't managed to extract your target troops from their metal bawkses you're out of luck.

The ichor injector is handy against monstrous and gargantuan creatures, but not much else. At least you get to keep the extra attack.

And is it just me, or does the Talos model in the codex data sheet have the illegal armament of both chain flails and liquifier? Nice to know that the design studio invalidate some of their own eavy metal models with their rules... shoulda magnetised him Wink

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Calyptra
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 00:08

While the ichor injector is better against monstrous creatures, I think the chain flails will be better against infantry. Anybody know against what toughness you're better off with the injector? I'm not sure if it would be 6 or 7.

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Silverglade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 01:42

First off. I think you can take both. In fact the picture in the codex is equipped with both chain flails and the twin linked liquefier gun.

Secondly, I think you're reading "wound" too literally. I think the chainflails work equally vs. vehicles.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 03:38

Nope the rulebook is very specific about "to wound" vs "armour penetration" rolls.
Shred only applies in combat vs models with a Toughness value.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 03:55

Aye, Wound is just a Toughness, no vehicles.

S7 Shred has an 88% wound on T6 and 75% on T7.
Fleshbane has 83% on everything.

I'd say Ichor injector against Eldar, but Chain Flails for everything else.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 04:37

And just for clarity's sake to finish Myrvn's fantastic summary;

S7 Shred has a 97% wound on T5 and lower
Vs Fleshbane's 83%.

But don't discount the Instant Death aspect of it either. On Monstrous Creatures or ANYTHING with multiple wounds that is T4+ (Spawn, Centurions, Thunderwolves, Oblits, HQs, you name it), the 1/6 chance to remove entire models with 1 hit instead of having to work your way through their wounds gets the Talos out of that combat and into the next one that much quicker, helping you terrorize your opponent and get the most out of your points.

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Dark Lance
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 16:56

Gents,

The feedback has been great! Thank you. Last night, I played a friend with a chapter master on a bike. You know the one, 2+, 3++ with a Thunder Hammer (sometimes feel no pain/it will not die).

The Talos with Ichor struck some fear into him. Especially when after taking him to 1 wound, the Talos did a feel no pain on the one wound the Chapter Master dealt in return. My friend had to run and we never finished but the TALOS is truly a monster.

So this morning, I am wondering.... Do you think we can join a special character to this formation. I know you can't join characters to monstrous creatures but the Haemy is not a monstrous creature. What do you think. Thanks.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 17:01

@Dark Lance wrote:
Gents,

So this morning, I am wondering.... Do you think we can join a special character to this formation.  I know you can't join characters to monstrous creatures but the Haemy is not a monstrous creature.  What do you think.  Thanks.

IC's cannot join a unit that has a vehicle or MC in it. The formation rules explicitly make an exception for the haemonculus that is in the formation and states that it is, in fact, an exception to the normal rules.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 20:10

Unholyllama got it right.

Plus, the "Follow Me, My Children!" special rule that specifically allows the Haemonculus to join the Cronos and Talos actually tells you straight up nobody else can join the unit.
When in doubt, re-read.

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solar shock
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 20 2014, 15:14

Having read the rules, I think its pretty specific you can only take 1 upgrade, I dont have the book on me to give the exact words, but I noticed that awhile ago and gave it a thorough read for that exact reason and came to the conclusion its very tight worded; 1 upgrade. Just a classic GW mistake with the modelling, but tbh I think they simply try and make the photos look cool regardless of loadout Razz

I think the standard load-out upgraded with an ichor injector is by far the best; for a TAC list where your not sure what your going to be facing. The fleshbane and insta-gib gives you the vesatility to take on almost anything, whereas when you swap to something else like chainflails or liquifier you become better at one thing, but a lot worse at the other.

The fleshbane and insta-gib, while your right in that with 5 attacks, its only likely to go off less than once per combat phase, the perk is, this is dice rolling Razz Could be first turn, could be first dice to leave your fingers insta-gibs that MC. Its just a little nasty added bonus imo. That combat you expected to win over a few turns? ah well you smashed em on the charge instead and now your moving on to the next hapless victim! It also makes them that much scarier, yeh you could argue most people will be like "its only a 1/6, not that likely", but the human mind doesn't work that way Razz The fear that the 1/6 insta-gib gives is not proportional to its actual threat, its greater.


Editted for making sense, got home and had my rule book:D thanks Count Smile


Last edited by solar shock on Thu Nov 20 2014, 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Talos in CC   Talos in CC I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 20 2014, 15:31

@solar shock wrote:
I think the standard load-out is by far the best; for a TAC list where your not sure what your going to be facing. The fleshbane and insta-gib gives you the vesatility to take on almost anything, whereas when you swap to something else like chainflails or injector you become better at one thing, but a lot worse at the other.

Not sure what you're saying here. Standard loadout is 2 cc weapons. It's the Ichor Injector that gives you Fleshbane and ID on 6's.

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