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 How to deal with walkers?

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Elzadar
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PostSubject: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 17:13

For dealing with vehicles I usually bring a unit of haywire scourges, reavers and raiders with lances. Any remaining vehicles I am usually able to take out in close combat with grotesques and incubi. However I have found walkers to be a problem, it's difficult to get to their side armour and they strike back at your grotesques with strength 10.

So how am I able to deal with walker lists?

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 17:17

Walkers have become so so so powerful in 7th, especially since we lost haywires. In my experience with them (played a blood angels guy the other day who had something like 8 and trounced me) I would say focus on the closest and blast it from distance. Drop behind them and try to glance to death. Blasters, darklances and haywire. Dint go into cc with them as my wych cult did and failed at unsurprisingly!

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 17:21

@Grub wrote:
Walkers have become so so so powerful in 7th, especially since we lost haywires. In my experience with them (played a blood angels guy the other day who had something like 8 and trounced me) I would say focus on the closest and blast it from distance. Drop behind them and try to glance to death. Blasters, darklances and haywire. Dint go into cc with them as my wych cult did and failed at unsurprisingly!

I tried this, but my mainly CC list failed misserably here, as my army was unable to put my opponent's army under pressure by trying to get into its face.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 17:36

I think that's a sad example of why shooting is stronger this edition.

But really that's an outgrowth of our assault units having basically no way to deal with Walkers as we are counting on getting to rear armor. We can't deal with walkers in assault - you need to modify your list to have enough shooting to deal with them or make all your assault Talos based.

I advocate the shooting method.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:03

I would strongly suggest against taking haywire on squad leaders now. Since its only the potential for (1) hull point - usually at around a 50% chance of success, with no hopes of destroying the vehicle in one go (since you can't get the ever-important +1 on the damage table). If you have no haywire grenades you can make use of the "our weapons are useless" rule (until T5 anyway!) and choose to flee combat.

Hopefully once out of combat you're able to embark on a transport & wisk yourself far enough away that the walker ceases to be a meaningful threat (difficult...)

Aside from this I'm fairly confident that the biggest threat to dark eldar, after wave serpents, will be drop-pod dreadnoughts armed with heavy flamers. Why? Because of their inherent alpha-strike potential in conjunction with the "No Escape" rule AND the fact that each 3 HP dreadnought will be accompanied by an additional 3HP drop pod (6 AV12 HP!?!) which will be able to claim objectives unless dealt with.

This highlights, what is in my opinion, the biggest problem with the dark eldar book, when compared to all the rest. Namely, despite having "tons" of access Rolling Eyes to anti-tank weaponry, we really don't have excellent AT platforms. Any armylist that can't remove 15-18 AV12 hullpoints from the table is going to struggle against current competitive armies and some of the sillier ones (walker spam for example). With the removal of mass haywire our Reliable AT has been significantly kicked in the teeth. A dozen dark lances only has about an 80% chance to inflict 3 hullpoints on AV12+, and that is assuming no saves of any kind. That's a significant investment in the dark eldar force - in limited AT.

Also, due to the low quantity of shots fired per unit, we don't have the reliablilty of rolling buckets of dice like the current kings of the meta-game - Tau & CWE; we're far more susceptible to the whims of fickle dice-gods than an army that is rolling 5-12 Twin Linked shots per turn.

Oh well, the inability to reliably deal with massed hullpoints has pretty much always been Dark Eldar's issue - back in 5th, my lances would always roll hot - 6's to hit, 6's to wound.... and then 1-2 on the damage chart, every time. We ostensibly have the tools to deal with this issue - in that our speed is supposed to allow us to get rear armor shots.... but I just find that doesn't seem to work out that well when playing against a canny opponent - they're able to setup traps by baiting you into the open by exposing rear armor here & there.... also, due to the 7+ required for explosions, we're still fishing for 6's, usually on one dice....
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:09

Clever handle pretty much hit it on the nose.

Played against a Drop Pod SM Dread with TL-Heavy Flamer, PFist, Heavy Flamer over the weekend. It torched 5 kabalite warriors in their Venom, put 4 wounds on my Grot/Succubus unit inside their Raider, then melted the Venom to goo the next turn. I tried putting hull points on it with a nearby kabalite blaster and managed to blow off the Heavy Flamer before the Iron Hands Dread got its HP back with IWND.
So that didn't really work, as most of my other anti-tank was tied up elsewhere.
Later it charged my Dark Artisan formation. First turn it stuck 2 wounds on my Talos, 'cause he was busy beating up marines with krak grenades.
Second turn I got my Haemy into base contact and LoS'd the attacks onto the Cronos, who passed his FNP and didn't take either of the two wounds landed.
Cronos Smash missed, Talos didn't smash yet still managed to put 2 HP on the Dread.

I also advocate shooting unless you have a MC handy. I'm inclined to start kitting out my Taloi tails with either heat lances or haywire to deal with things like this.

Oh yeah, and the Drop Pod managed to kill a Haywire Blaster toting Scourge I needed as well as score Linebreaker.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:27

Witches.

Yeah, they had lost haywires, but Hekatrix still have it. And continue to have 4++ in CC.

Witches are best way to block in close combat all firing-walkers. You want to prevent walker's fire income, and block it in CC is the best way to do that.
And Hekatrix then will crush it slowly with HG.

Watch out for flamers
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:38

@Cerve,

this is an inefficient, and dangerous, way to combat walkers. As they're almost universally S6 before powerfists, we're not able to claim our second layer of protection. Also, with only 1 haywire grenade in the unit, and generally a 50% chance to hit, you're looking at only a 41.7% chance to strip a hullpoint each round of combat. That means with a T2 charge, you'll be lucky to be out of combat (if alive!) by T4. If you're counting on a 115pt squad of wyches to hold that monster down, you're not being terribly efficient as you're tying up just as many points as the walker is worth.

As I indicated above, I would strongly advise against the haywire grenades on unit champions as you're almost always going to be better suited to fall back, out of combat, and let our shooting do the work for us.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:48

@clever handle wrote:
@Cerve,

this is an inefficient, and dangerous, way to combat walkers.  As they're almost universally S6 before powerfists, we're not able to claim our second layer of protection.  Also, with only 1 haywire grenade in the unit, and generally a 50% chance to hit, you're looking at only a 41.7% chance to strip a hullpoint each round of combat.  That means with a T2 charge, you'll be lucky to be out of combat (if alive!) by T4.  If you're counting on a 115pt squad of wyches to hold that monster down, you're not being terribly efficient as you're tying up just as many points as the walker is worth.

As I indicated above, I would strongly advise against the haywire grenades on unit champions as you're almost always going to be better suited to fall back, out of combat, and let our shooting do the work for us.


5 Witches with Heka HG = 65 points

Disembark, throw 1 greneade, assault. Then, you have stopped the Walker.

You don't wanna crush it, you wanna STOP it. Bye bye rifle-walker

That works before. That still work good now. Even without HG on entire squad
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 18:57

Sure but most of the people out there bring walkers with twin-linked guns, or even worse, flamers. That overwatch is cutting down a witch or two, and then the walker will be killing .6 of a wych every round vs the wych unit's .41 of a hull point dealt every round. Or, at the very best, the walker will also be killing .41 if it is a rifleman. 3, maybe 4 wyches in CC vs 3 HP and it looks pretty bad.
That is a losing battle.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 19:00

@Cerve wrote:
@clever handle wrote:
@Cerve,

this is an inefficient, and dangerous, way to combat walkers.  As they're almost universally S6 before powerfists, we're not able to claim our second layer of protection.  Also, with only 1 haywire grenade in the unit, and generally a 50% chance to hit, you're looking at only a 41.7% chance to strip a hullpoint each round of combat.  That means with a T2 charge, you'll be lucky to be out of combat (if alive!) by T4.  If you're counting on a 115pt squad of wyches to hold that monster down, you're not being terribly efficient as you're tying up just as many points as the walker is worth.

As I indicated above, I would strongly advise against the haywire grenades on unit champions as you're almost always going to be better suited to fall back, out of combat, and let our shooting do the work for us.


5 Witches with Heka HG = 65 points

Disembark, throw 1 greneade, assault. Then, you have stopped the Walker.

You don't wanna crush it, you wanna STOP it. Bye bye rifle-walker

That works before. That still work good now. Even without HG on entire squad

However when facing a defiler you will get wall of death hits first, killing one or two models. Then the walker will easily kill 1/2 wyches per turn. so the wyches will only be able to tie it up for 1-2 turns max. Normally I would use grotesques to tie it up, but dreadnoughts with s10 make this nearly impossible to do.

Talos with haywire could be considered, though it still is only one shot per turn. Though less easily killed than scourges.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 19:10

@Elzadar wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@clever handle wrote:
@Cerve,

this is an inefficient, and dangerous, way to combat walkers.  As they're almost universally S6 before powerfists, we're not able to claim our second layer of protection.  Also, with only 1 haywire grenade in the unit, and generally a 50% chance to hit, you're looking at only a 41.7% chance to strip a hullpoint each round of combat.  That means with a T2 charge, you'll be lucky to be out of combat (if alive!) by T4.  If you're counting on a 115pt squad of wyches to hold that monster down, you're not being terribly efficient as you're tying up just as many points as the walker is worth.

As I indicated above, I would strongly advise against the haywire grenades on unit champions as you're almost always going to be better suited to fall back, out of combat, and let our shooting do the work for us.


5 Witches with Heka HG = 65 points

Disembark, throw 1 greneade, assault. Then, you have stopped the Walker.

You don't wanna crush it, you wanna STOP it. Bye bye rifle-walker

That works before. That still work good now. Even without HG on entire squad

However when facing a defiler you will get wall of death hits first, killing one or two models. Then the walker will easily kill 1/2 wyches per turn. so the wyches will only be able to tie it up for 1-2 turns max. Normally I would use grotesques to tie it up, but dreadnoughts with s10 make this nearly impossible to do.

Talos with haywire could be considered, though it still is only one shot per turn. Though less easily killed than scourges.

Ok, against a defiler or other MeleeWalkers you need to help these poor cheerleaders, but I found 5 Wytches squads great for the job. Both stop fire-walkers, or finishing melee walkers.

I like to mix my units to do something. Of course Witches doesn't work alone, but 4++ on CC it's so good against walkers
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 19:23

Shoot the walkers. It's really the only sensible way of getting rid of them.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 20:44

@Laughingcarp wrote:
First turn it stuck 2 wounds on my Talos, 'cause he was busy beating up marines with krak grenades.

This may be in your favour for next time, but Krak Grenades can only be used against vehicles in CC I believe? Otherwise all marines would just be strength 6! Correct me if I'm wrong!

But yeah, assault sucks in 7th, you just have 3 viable options in my experience.
1) Tarpit with a small squad of wyches and hope you are really good at rolling 4++
2) Hit it with a talos or two, 1 often isn't enough
3) Shoot at them with everything you have, maximise your mobility and just try and glance them to death.

But good luck have fun with that.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:06

@Grub wrote:
This may be in your favour for next time, but Krak Grenades can only be used against vehicles in CC I believe? Otherwise all marines would just be strength 6! Correct me if I'm wrong!
Page 180 - you can use grenades versus vehicles, buildings, gun emplacements, and MCs.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:07

ah MCs as well, that is interesting, I take it back! Cheers Thor, your knowledge of the rulebook is quite spectacular!

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:08

@Grub wrote:

2) Hit it with a talos or two, 1 often isn't enough
Doesn't work, been there, done that Smile Do not try this against an Ironclad or Soulgrinder Smile Did not work against a Defiler, too...

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:08

krak can be used in combat against monstrous creatures, only 1 attack each though

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 21:21

@Finn wrote:
@Grub wrote:

2) Hit it with a talos or two, 1 often isn't enough
Doesn't work, been there, done that Smile Do not try this against an Ironclad or Soulgrinder Smile Did not work against a Defiler, too...

Haha yes, fair enough! I wouldnt go up against a knight, ironclad or soulgrinder anyway. That stuff just has to be shot or avoided. In above mentioned blood angels game with 7 or 8 dreadnaughts that I played recently, I had one talos with heat lances that took a hp off a contemptor then smooshed it in cc (nearby chronos in another combat helped with the fnp). However the rest could only effectively be taken down by causing enough glances rather then pens. In hindsight
A) I wouldn't have run a wych themed list
B) I would have taken more scourgewires just to auto glance those things away

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 07:25

I was wondering, in the dark artisan your haeny is majority tough 7. Now if he were the only model in base contact then the marines must swing at him. He is not an MC and thus can't have krak nades used against him. Is all that correct?

And sure rarely after pile in will he be the only one in base but still, any models in base with him will have to not swing kraks.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 17:27

@The Red King wrote:
I was wondering,  in the dark artisan your haeny is majority tough 7. Now if he were the only model in base contact then the marines must swing at him. He is not an MC and thus can't have krak nades used against him.  Is all that correct?
That is correct.

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 17:35

Hah so he can tank nade units and be invincible lol

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 19:10

I posted a hypothetical list that goes extreme on the duck thread awhile back. It is a Champions of Fenris list that allows eight elites - no troops.

HQ – Bjorn the Fellhanded w/ Helfrost Cannon

Elites - 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Fenrisian Axe and Blizzard Shield, Extra Armor, Drop Pod

Elites – 2x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw, Drop Pod

Elites – Murderfang, Drop Pod

Elites – 3x Venerable Dreadnought w/ Helfrost Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Smoke Launchers, Greater Wolf Claw. Extra Armour

This list would give my DE a run for their money for sure. How do you defend against that? Good thing is that against a centstar list, FMC list, heavy flyer list, etc., it will be crushed so it is not likely to see a lot of play.

DE have weaknesses - we have a tough time against IKs, WKs, DKs and Riptides too if they are fielded in multiples. We can handle one or two of these units sometimes but as people spam more we run into trouble quickly. Lance formation IK can be a nightmare.

I find these type of threads quite misleading as well. Let us not assume you are tailoring a list for one specific match up. Don't recommend taking spammed units you would not normally field. Tell me how you beat these with your TaC DE list

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 19:51

@egorey wrote:

DE have weaknesses - we have a tough time against IKs, WKs, DKs and Riptides too if they are fielded in multiples. We can handle one or two of these units sometimes but as people spam more we run into trouble quickly. Lance formation IK can be a nightmare.

Small edit of your post DoD.  Wraithknights, Dreadknights & Riptides all have toughness values & thus are easily handled at range by poison shooting.  Hell, I LOVE to get paired agoust double wraithknight lists as to dark eldar, they're functionally nothing more than a couple of assault marines stapled together.

Dreadknights & riptides being only T6 means lances still wound on 2's & bypass their armor saves so you don't have to rely on poison to push through the 2+ save.  And if you can keep a riptide using its overcharge to boost its shields instead of charging up his guns, that's a victory in & of itself=)

*edit*
I haven't played against the lance formation myself, but since that's like 1000 pts in 3 models, shouldn't the DE MSU style of armylist do quite well against these guys? I would assume the best odds are to simply use our speed to stay as far away from them as we can (hug the board edges! all the board edges!!!), completely disregard shooting to turbo-boost around the field, and score objectives at the end of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with walkers?   How to deal with walkers? I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 20:09

No. Multiple Wraithknights, Dreadknights and Riptides hurt us faster than we hurt them.

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