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 500 and 750pt Starter Lists

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Anax
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Anax

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PostSubject: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 17:26

I'm currently planning out my initial foray into Dark Eldar armybuilding. I'm attempting to keep purchases to a reasonable amount, to ensure that I enjoy the actual game-playing as much as I do the background before purchasing too much more. I'm thinking that I'm willing to spend around $100-150 CAD on new models to make it to the eventual 750, but would like to figure out a 500 that I can get to the table sooner.

Thanks to some gifts from friends over the last couple of years, I currently own the following in some degree of assembly:

1 Archon, metal
18 Kabalite Warriors, plastic
5 Incubi, Finecast

I'm very interested in Scourges, and as such would like to see if I can make them fit into the 750 list if at all possible. This is what I'm currently working around:

Gilded Vein Scouting Party (500pts)
Combined Arms Detachment
HQ:
Archon - Shadow field, Webway Portal, Agonizer or Huskblade (160pts)
Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors - Dark Lance, w/ Raider - Dark Lance (160 pts)
5x Kabalite Warriors - Blaster, w/ Venom - Splinter Cannon (120 pts)
Elites:
3x Incubi (60 pts)
Total 500pts
Purchase Needs: 1 Raider, 1 Venom

Current plan for this 500pt list is to make use of what little anti-tank I can scrounge together from the Kabalites and the Raider, as I'm worried about dealing with a single tank at this level, mostly. Archon and Incubi will deal with anything I'll have difficulty shooting at. Given the small unit size, I'm wondering if reducing the Archon's weapon to a Power Sword would be worth it to make one of the Incubi a Klaivex for Rampage. I would avoid fielding the Incubi here if I could, and once I expand my collection some, they likely won't come to play at this points level in the long run.

Gilded Vein Skirmish Party (750pts)
Realspace Raiders Detachment
HQ:
Archon - Shadow Field, Webway Portal, Agonizer or Huskblade, Haywire Grenades (not sure if this is a good call or not) (165pts)
Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors - Splinter Cannon, w/ Raider - Dark Lance, Splinter Racks (170 pts)
5x Kabalite Warriors - Blaster, w/ Venom - Splinter Cannon (120 pts)
Fast Attack:
5x Scourges - 4x Haywire Blasters (120 pts)
3x Reavers - 1x Cluster Caltrops (63 pts)
Elites:
4x Incubi - Klaivex (90 pts)
Total 665pts (22 pts remaining, not sure what to do with it)
Purchase Needs: From above, +1 Scourges box, +1 Reavers box

For this 750pt list, I've been able to move much of my anti-tank off to the Scourges (and, in a pinch, maybe a few hits from the Reaver's caltrops, the Kabalite blaster, or the Archon's grenade). This allows me to send some serious firepower downrange with the Raider Kabalites while the camp mid-/back-field objectives. I've improved the Incubus unit some, as I'm sure that at this level their fights will be getting a bit more difficult.

~

In the long run, I'd be looking to replace the Archon with a Succubus (Armor of Misery, WWP, Archite Glaive, etc.) for the Incubus unit, but have been planning on replacing her with a counts-as built from a Scourge for fluff reasons, so am not interested in buying the new Wych model just yet (though may eventually to WYSIWIG the glaive). For now, though, I'd like to at least play with what I have, so I'm making use of the Archon. I'd love to hear your opinion of weapon choice for him, though, in the meantime.

If you have any alternate suggestions, I'd love to hear them as well! Just because I've built this from what I have, and what I'm interested in (Incubi, Scourges, and Mandrakes are all things I'm interested in expanding, or moving towards), doesn't mean that I'm not willing or excited to look at alternate ways of building. I will say, though, that I'm not terribly excited about Coven units, but am willing to give them a whirl, especially as a form of progress towards a Dark Artisans formation.

Thanks for your time Smile

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Kabal of the Gilded Vein * Newbie
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Thor665
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Thor665

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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 17:40

I would say for the 500 point list an Aggie on the Archon is more valuable than a Klaivex.

I'm not sure what other question, if any, you're really asking.
I will caution that mandrakes aren't particularly that good - maybe try proxying them a few times to see if you actually like what they bring to the army before buying any.

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500 and 750pt Starter Lists K93hWhs
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Anax
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Anax

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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 17:53

Thanks for the input! I'm assuming the Agonizer would be the better choice due to its reliability, whereas the benefits from a Klaivex are going to be much more corner-case?

I think, in some ways, I'm asking what kinds of things I should be trying to have answers for at this points level, and if I've done an adequate job of covering my bases. If not, I'd like to see suggestions of alternate ways of building a list at this low of a points level; most of the people I know locally are playing 1500, 1850, or 2000 pretty much all of the time, so have been pretty unsure about any advice they've given. I'm only just starting to get the hang of the rules of the game, so I'm not entirely sure the kinds of units I need to worry about when building a list (though I have read a few articles on the subject so far). I'm also looking for suggestions of what do with my last few points in the 750pt list.

I don't mind Mandrakes not being great; I'm just happy that they've improved since the 5th edition codex enough to make me willing to buy a box. They fit the fluff of my army a fair deal, will be an enjoyable (if aggravating) painting project, and I like the idea of infiltrating. Before prioritizing their purchase, though, I'll definitely take your advice and proxy them in to see just how quickly I'll be interested in picking some up.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 18:32

@Anax wrote:
Thanks for the input! I'm assuming the Agonizer would be the better choice due to its reliability, whereas the benefits from a Klaivex are going to be much more corner-case?
It's more just hole filling - a power sword does nothing that a klaive can't, whereas an Aggie deals with high toughness values better - thereby making it a better tool to enhance the ability of the unit to deal with multiple threats.

@Anax wrote:
I think, in some ways, I'm asking what kinds of things I should be trying to have answers for at this points level, and if I've done an adequate job of covering my bases.
Meh, anything 1,000 or less is really an even more intense game of paper/rock/scissors than the regular game which is already strongly in that vein nowadays anyway.

Have stuff to kill infantry, vehicles, flying vehicles, flying MCs, and MCs...you can't functionally do that, and a lot of lists can manage to wedge in more than one of those in any given list, especially with Unbound derping around.

Your list is fine to see how those units do - if I was to adjust the list my core suggestion would involve chopping the Incubi which you're not going to wish to do per stated reasoning. So at that stage it's a fine list.

@Anax wrote:
I'm also looking for suggestions of what do with my last few points in the 750pt list.
A quick fix without getting new models would probably be +1 Incubi, since if you're DSing them in they're going to be standing there for a shooting round so you may want the extra body to absorb the wounds you'll doubtless get tossed your way.

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Anax
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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 18:46

Thanks for all of your help. I think I have a bit of a better understanding of what you mean with the list-building; attempting to cover all of those bases at such a low points value seems an exercise in futility, so it does kind of fall into a bit of rock-paper-scissors.

To help plan beyond what I'm looking at right now, could you explain what you might field in place of the Archon+Incubi in the 500pt list? These certainly aren't lists I'm going to necessarily want to stick with once I expand my army some (Incubi in such a low points value force just seem increasingly unfitting), so knowing other interesting options that do their jobs more effectively might help my planning for beyond the 750-pt list.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 19:01

@Anax wrote:
To help plan beyond what I'm looking at right now, could you explain what you might field in place of the Archon+Incubi in the 500pt list?
That's actually a pretty intense question and feeds back into the entire concept of list building.

Basically, at the core, I would not even bother with an elite assault unit build in a 500 point list at all.
Also, if I was ever going to DS in a unit in 500 points I would assuredly make it a shooting unit.

As to the specifics of what I'd do with that as a mental concept - the options are many. But those sorts of specifics are unhelpful to you for the purpose of this exercise (I'm almost waiting for HERO to come roaring in and tell me I look like a fool for saying this Laughing ).

The question isn't 'what would you take instead?'
The question is 'why would taking DSing Incubi in 500-750 points be a good or bad choice?'

I think its a bad choice because, at the point total you are playing at (and let's take 500 as it really makes my point easiest) you are saying that you want to take 220 points that will, in the best case scenario, not get to attack until Turn 3.
So you want to take about 50% of your army and not use it for about 50% of the game.
Is that a viable use of those points?
I feel - no.

I think units earn their value by accomplishing goals. Now, there are a wide range of goals, but at the end of the day in 40k you tend to win goals by killing the enemy and holding objectives. Holding objectives is more of a late game goal (except in Maelstrom) and killing the enemy is an every turn goal.
I think if I have 220 points sitting off the board for about half the game then I am saying to my opponent - let's see how well your 500 points can kill my 280 point army. Most of the time I would not like my chances in that setup.
So what I would do would be to make units that are either on the board from the get go - or that are shooting focused so they could, theoretically, cause a lot of damage when they arrive Turn 2. The Archon/Incubi do not so therefore I would not play them and would build something with that concept in mind.

Hope that helps.

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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeMon Nov 03 2014, 19:09

That's helped a lot, Thor. Thanks for the insight; I think I'll take another crack at this list in a day or two after I've mulled over everything you've said, maybe consider some straight-up proxying in the short-term with any opponents I can find that are open to it (shouldn't be too hard). I'll still give the list I've written a try at least a couple of times, since there's no harm in it, and it'll help make it clear exactly what that kind of delay does to a list, but I'll also see if I can't figure out a list that makes more effective use of my points at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 05 2014, 02:01

I'm pretty new to dark eldar and have only had a few games so far but my 500 pt list looked like:
Archon - blaster + clone field
trueborn - 4 blaster + raider w/DL
warriors
wyches - venom + 2nd splinter cannon
reavers - heat lance + caltrops

That comes to 500 pt and has a lot of coverage. For you, I'd recommend maybe proxy the trueborn using 1/2 the 10 man squad and use the other half as foot sloggers with maybe a DL. Put your other 5 warriors in the venom and it will probably do something very similar. I've won against eldar, necrons and space marines and lost against eldar and inquisitorial space marines. It's a lot of fun and moves fast.
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PostSubject: Re: 500 and 750pt Starter Lists   500 and 750pt Starter Lists I_icon_minitime

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