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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 03:54

I've been playing with this army for a good 2 years now and have eventually been able to create several lists which have preformed quite well. In hindsight, too well.

I haven't lost a game against any one of my friends in a very long time. The problem is that each game I play now follows a certain pattern:

Turn 1: Kill or Damage tanks
Turn 2: Distract or Kill Dangerous Shooty Units
Turn 3: Archon assaults and kills opposing Warlord
Turn 4: player resigns

For some strange reason, my opponents don't like this arrangement.

What I need help with is finding a way to make it so others feel as if they had fighting chance. One possible solution would be to simply limit the use of my anti tank weapons. To be blunt, I don't want to so I was hoping to discover a better way.

I generally play against SM, IG and Tau. Any ideas?
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 04:31

Bring a CC army. I'm thinking Wyches, Wracks, Hellions, Maybe a couple of Grots but not too many and Talos/Cronos. Bloodbrides and Ur-Ghuls are optional. If they can't win against that then they need an intervention.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 04:40

I never really understand these threads - the idea that someone is good enough at the game not to lose but not good enough at the game to build a shabby enough list to hinder themselves seems funny to me. I kind of think I'm good - but I'm able to play 'learn to play 40k' games with ten year olds and allow them to win if I want.

The easiest way to loose is simply to take sub-optimal stuff in your list.
The next obvious option is to play things that are, y'know, different from what you usually do.

A quick and easy thought to my mind is - go 100% footslog and refuse to use WWPs.
The sheer mobility donk ought to immediately help your opponents and probably leave you with a larger strategic challenge for obtaining objectives which ought to also make the game more interesting for you.
As an added bonus it is slower, so will likely allow your opponents to live longer which also seems to be part of their issue.

If you normally footslog (!?!) then maybe go 100% Deepstrike and use a Scalpel squadron paired with things dropping in from reserves.

Build an army featuring no less than 60% of your points in Wyches/Bloodbrides/Mandrakes/and Hellions.

Build an all assault army.

As another option - are your opponents weak players?
Are they building sub-optimal lists?
I kind of presume so - because however good of a player you are, if you're going undefeated then they are either building bad lists or making poor decisions. Talk to them about their lists - offer them advice. Iron sharpens iron and if they get better then the challenge of facing them will make you better.

Heck, send them here and have them post their lists and available models - I can teach them how to deal with DE armies.

Hope some of those ideas help.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 05:41

Sorry Thor wyches don't gimp a list quite that hard lol. Honestly brides are only 30 points more than my regular wyches for 10 more attacks. I don't think that's too bad a trade though WS5 should probably be a thing.

In conclusion if brides filled troop slots I'd bring em. I mean with a good drug roll a full squad puts out 50 attacks on the charge. 50 is a lot from ten models lol (I know it's still a bad unit)

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 06:03

@The Red King wrote:
Sorry Thor wyches don't gimp a list quite that hard lol. Honestly brides are only 30 points more than my regular wyches for 10 more attacks. I don't think that's too bad a trade though WS5 should probably be a thing.
Make a list with at least 60% of its points in Brides, Wyches, Mandrakes, and Hellions and I will show you a gimped list.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 06:47

Well. I had this "problem" too in the beginning, but it just took me to realize that the guys I was playing were simply very baaad listbuilders and fairly bad players. So I changed locale. Now winning is a real challenge.

Honestly our new Archon slaying an enemy warlord worthy of the name every game seems like a realm of fantasy. Which leads me to the conclusion that the lists you go against prolly are not well built.

This is not meant as an offence to your mates, but having had this issue too I just felt like sharing the experience.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 07:19

I mimic Thor. If you win all the time in your local gaming groups that's just a sign of bad list building and players. When I met a good group of guys to play with they learned how to target my biggest threats and deal with them while trying to protect their biggest threats. In other words, if I kicked an opponents ass more then 3 times they'd either adjust their playstyle or their list. Making the game harder.

But if you want to lose just run 6 squads of 20 wyches on foot. Use void ravens. And umm.. 6 squads of hellions.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 10:18

I truly am unsure how Tau and IG are losing consistently to DE without even a fight. From my own IG experience I honestly don't think I could possibly put together a list that wouldn't at least put up a fight against DE.

And I'm led to understand Tau are even better against us (don't really have them here).

Bah. Send them here as Thor suggested. The folk of the Dark City are always willing to help someone else remove a rival Archon for us Wink

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 10:50

I agree. For an army that relies greatly (almost exclusivey) on cover saves, to win consistently against Tau and IG who can ignore cover very easily, really doesn't say a great deal about the quality of the Tau and IG players.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 12:35

Thank you for all your help!

Since this problem really only occurs with a certain group of friends I think I'll suggest going to my local gaming group where we can all play new players to make things more interesting.

IMO if I suddenly decided to stop using my vehicles which have done so well in favour of mobs of T3 6+ Armor troops it would kinda be obvious. Nevertheless, I will take your advice and begin to play more assault-based lists.

For those who were asking this is a typical example of a list I play against at 1000 points:

Ultramarines:

Chief Librarian Tigarius
Librarian ml2
Dreadnought w/ MM, HF in a drop pod
2 10 manTactical Squads with MM, F in Rhinos
Land Speeder w/ ML, MM
2 Stalkers

This is kind of why I stock up on anti-tank...

Anyway, thank you all for your help! Smile



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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 12:42

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
Thank you for all your help!

Since this problem really only occurs with a certain group of friends I think I'll suggest going to my local gaming group where we can all play new players to make things more interesting.

IMO if I suddenly decided to stop using my vehicles which have done so well in favour of mobs of T3 6+ Armor troops it would kinda be obvious. Nevertheless, I will take your advice and begin to play more assault-based lists.

For those who were asking this is a typical example of a list I play against at 1000 points:

Ultramarines:

Chief Librarian Tigarius
Librarian ml2
Dreadnought w/ MM, HF in a drop pod
2 10 manTactical Squads with MM, F in Rhinos
Land Speeder w/ ML, MM
2 Stalkers

This is kind of why I stock up on anti-tank...

Anyway, thank you all for your help! Smile




Yup, that'd be why you're winning a lot - 2 stalkers is a horrible choice to take (a quad gun they are not, Interceptor makes all the difference here!)

And whilst he's a good option, taking Tiggy at 1000 points plus another psyker is a whole lotta points to drop on two models.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 12:48

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
For those who were asking this is a typical example of a list I play against at 1000 points:

Ultramarines:

Chief Librarian Tigarius
Librarian ml2
Dreadnought w/ MM, HF in a drop pod
2 10 manTactical Squads with MM, F in Rhinos
Land Speeder w/ ML, MM
2 Stalkers

That's a horrible list! And I don't mean horrible as in 'nasty', I mean horrible as in just plain bad! Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 13:10

Well it seems like that is the general consensus.

Are there any ways that you could improve upon it?
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 13:42

First off, I'd say Tiggy is waaaaaaaay over the top at 1K
secondly (mind you, I'm no marines player myself, but I can go from what I've seen), MSU seems to perform better
Also, stalkers are terrible
I guess someone else can give some better feedback on what to take instead, I really wouldn't know

If you really want to lose, suggest he proxy the stalkers for whirlwinds, and then field a bunch of footslogging wyches Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 13:56

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
Well it seems like that is the general consensus.

Are there any ways that you could improve upon it?

Is this a TAC list or something he specifically plays against you? I'm not played much with the new Marine codex but I'd start with losing the 2 Stalkers. At 1000 points you really don't need that much AA.

Secondly, Land Speeders took a real hit with the changes to the 7e Jink rules so I'd lose that too. It's basically a free kill point/first blood.

Thirdly, Tigurius is very good but I don't think I'd bother with the second psyker at this sort of point level. That's over 25% of the army in 2 models!

That saves a few hundred points. I'd certainly consider a Thunderfire Cannon and I'd be tempted with a Devastator squad, possibly in a fortification of some kind with a quadgun to replace the Stalkers.

If I know I'm facing DE then I'd consider a Whirlwind and I'd also take twin heavy flamers on the dread and lose most of the multi-meltas.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:05

@ShamPow1999 wrote:
Well it seems like that is the general consensus.

Are there any ways that you could improve upon it?

Drop pods for the tactical squads instead of Rhinos' (same points, armour 12 instead of 11/11/10)

Drop Tigurius and both stalkers, landspeeder, swap normal dread for ironclad. (Tigurius too many points for 1 model at this level, stalkers are ineffective at preventing flyers from causing damage, landspeeder is very fragile (like a venom without the flickerfield) and that loadout is expensive.

For AT take attack bikes in pairs.

Aegis line with quad gun for AA.

if you have points left, go bike squad, or as the count says - Thunderfire is one of the best in the game for 100 points (just don't leave him on his own).

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:07

Well I am no SM player either, but what I have seen working:

MECH LIST
Dreadnought in DP is nice and brings pressure on T1 but on 1000 takes up a lot of points. Land Speeder is a nice trick if you have locator on the pod, its fast but as fragile as Venom. Might be better to take something else. I would add this combo later at higher points count with 2 speeders MM/HF. Great alpha strike and movement deterrent.

Kick Tigurius. Keep the Libby if you feel like it. Or swap for CC HQ.

I would go full bonzo in rhinos with shooting plasma on the way. Load up on Combis.

Bring a 2 Predators instead of Stalkers. Keep mechanized.

So you have your high-strength shooting, mid-strength shooting. A flamer or two should be there somewhere IIRC the dex correctly.

Now something to go with HQ... Now really depends on what you like to use and will fit your play. Honour Guard if CC Master? Command Squad with Apothecary if you take Libby or Capt? Drop-Podding Sternguard? There are choices for any playstyle.

After playing some games, everyone should be able to imagine what happens T1, T2, etc... if you win Initiative and if you lose initiative. That is how I am building lists. And by creating tough choices. Like - do I shoot the Rhinos to prevent the plasmas/flamers getting close or the tougher predators that can kill my vehicles?

Good thing is removing targets from the board - like ensure that there is nothing that can be shot at by anti-infantry weapons like splinters.

Just some thoughts...

EDIT: Forgot the UM doctrine. Mech list might not be the best to benefit from it, but has other advantages. Hit rerolls on combined plasmafire with tacticals can be priceless. And Devastator doctrine should give you all the AA you need.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:22

As a marine player,

@aurynn wrote:
Well I am no SM player either, but what I have seen working:

MECH LIST
Dreadnought in DP is nice and brings pressure on T1 but on 1000 takes up a lot of points. Land Speeder is a nice trick if you have locator on the pod, its fast but as fragile as Venom.

more fragile than a venom, no invun

@aurynn wrote:
Kick Tigurius. Keep the Libby if you feel like it. Or swap for CC HQ.
don't go CC HQ at this points level - marine HQ's cost too much to make them good at this level

@aurynn wrote:
I would go full bonzo in rhinos with shooting plasma on the way. Load up on Combis.

Rhinos' can work, but are easily brought down leaving you footslogging - not good. Drop pods let you go second and avoid fire on troops units and bring them exactly where you want them

@aurynn wrote:
Now something to go with HQ... Now really depends on what you like to use and will fit your play. Honour Guard if CC Master? Command Squad with Apothecary if you take Libby or Capt? Drop-Podding Sternguard? There are choices for any playstyle.
9 Drop podding sternguard with a pair of heavy flamers and a Libby HQ with the pyromancy discipline can be a nightmare for infantry units. Don't take honour guard at this level - the only assault transport marines have is the land raider. Once you add in chapter master and honour guard themselves you're probably over 50% of your points on that one unit.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:34

Thanks for SM player comment Eye. :-)

Speeders - I have seen the two speeders do very well, especially against DE. They are easy KP, true, but can have huge impact if played right. And they NEED to be adressed and can create tough target choices.

Rhino comment - yes. But I have seen them work more than fine. As for drop pods - I understand that it is either go with 1 drop pod to bring on T1 or full drop-pod assault. I dont see much in-between lists. What do you think?

You are right with CC HQ and Honour Guard. Assault transport is a problem.
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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:47

@aurynn wrote:
Thanks for SM player comment Eye. :-)

Speeders - I have seen the two speeders do very well, especially against DE. They are easy KP, true, but can have huge impact if played right. And they NEED to be adressed and can create tough target choices.  

Rhino comment - yes. But I have seen them work more than fine. As for drop pods - I understand that it is either go with 1 drop pod to bring on T1 or full drop-pod assault. I dont see much in-between lists. What do you think?

You are right with CC HQ and Honour Guard. Assault transport is a problem.

Speeders - the fragility is the problem. I have used the MM/Typhoon launcher loadout on a pair of them myself on a few occasions, the biggest issue is that they really need to drop close to use the weapons, which means they'll probably be in range of sufficient guns to wipe them out in the next turn. As such, it's crucial that they hit their target. If that's a tank then two multi meltas is not really enough to guarantee success (I used it on Saturday, one missed and the other failed to pen, then they got totalled in the next turn)

Rhinos/Pods - it's kind of like drop pods really, if you're going to use them, they're best used in numbers. One rhino is not difficult to take down for most lists. 4 or 5 are a different proposition. Pods are an interesting beast, you'll usually see them used in odd numbers since half rounding up arrive on turn 1 (so there's no real benefit to using 2 instead of 1, you might as well take three and get the choice of 2 units for that first turn drop. Trick is to make each pod have a different purpose and because you choose which ones arrive, you can pick your high priority targets and just drop in the pods that deal with those targets)

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:32

Surprised no one has mentioned sterngaurd. Their little ignore cover ammo can be a nuisance.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:34

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Surprised no one has mentioned sterngaurd. Their little ignore cover ammo can be a nuisance.

I did. the only issue is they get very expensive very quickly, but keeping them pretty basic they're one of the best units in the SM codex.

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:42

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Surprised no one has mentioned sterngaurd. Their little ignore cover ammo can be a nuisance.

I did. the only issue is they get very expensive very quickly, but keeping them pretty basic they're one of the best units in the SM codex.

Oh, didn't notice, but you're right, they're the swiss army knife of the codex. Also, drop podding anything with flamers against DE is a brilliant choice, if not necessarily the TAC choice. When I know a drop pod with flamers is coming it really screws with my deployment options. No escape indeed.

I haven't played IG but I'm surprised you beat tau so soundly. I win most of my games overall, but I definitely have a losing record vs tau. I'd be interested to see that list! Ha!

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:50

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Surprised no one has mentioned sterngaurd. Their little ignore cover ammo can be a nuisance.

I did. the only issue is they get very expensive very quickly, but keeping them pretty basic they're one of the best units in the SM codex.

Oh, didn't notice, but you're right, they're the swiss army knife of the codex. Also, drop podding anything with flamers against DE is a brilliant choice, if not necessarily the TAC choice. When I know a drop pod with flamers is coming it really screws with my deployment options. No escape indeed.

I haven't played IG but I'm surprised you beat tau so soundly. I win most of my games overall, but I definitely have a losing record vs tau. I'd be interested to see that list! Ha!

I just like the utility of having a pair (or effectively three with the pyromancy primaris power) of heavy flamers - the extra point of strength even makes them worth taking against marines i think - if you can cover 5-6 with each template, then assuming you get the psychic power off, you're looking at 15-18 hits, 10-12 wounds so 3-4 dead marines before you even start firing anything else (and the flamers mean you don't need to worry about 'gets hot'.

Two heavy flamers made a right mess of a mate's ork trukk mobz when i played him, managed to hit two trukks with each, and killed off most of the passengers too!

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PostSubject: Re: How to Lose?   How to Lose? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:03

Mmm hmm. I made the same mistake in my first game of seventh, I measured by eye and my boat was .5" instead of the 1" I thought out of range. Furioso dreadnaught came down with frag cannon and heavy flamer, and managed to clip a second boat. The boats were fine but the crew were toast. That's what I mean screws with my deployment options. Your set up is brutal, but just one drop pod with a couple of flamers is enough to keep an Archon honest his first turn. And it makes deployment a headache. The predator with the assault cannon and heavy bolters is probably a good option too. It has enough fire power to force you to jink, and enough shots to reliably take out vehicles and infantry, and at 1000 points it's a steal.

Edit: Though to be fair Whirlwinds might be better, I don't know the actual rules for them. I don't play space marines, my experience and advice comes from playing against mostly space marines, but against players who actually know how to play and adapt.

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COMMORRAGH TACTICA

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