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flakmonkey
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flakmonkey

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PostSubject: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 06:38

So, I recently felt the clarion call of Chaos, and started painting up some warriors and a rhino in Iron Warrior colours.

I'm hoping to add more, as I've really enjoyed painting a totally different colour scheme as well as very differently shaped models.

But where I really want help is in what do people think the Chaos Legions can offer the DE?

Terminators for deep strikes?
Havocs and Oblits for long range fire support?
Mutilators for CC?
PS I'm really not interested in Cultists. I don't like them with Legion colours. And if i want T3 troops, I got my kabbies.

Any comments appreciated.
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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 13:29

Something that can operate far from you! I teamed up with a chaos player once and it was a disaster, kept failing my One Eye Open rolls and incapacitating units. Bad planning on my part, perhaps, but oddly hard to avoid once you start running round after objectives.

I've often wondered about a chaos predator being a good way to make your opponent think twice about where he can position tanks and the like to shoot down your transports. But again, that's in my meta, where there are a lot of tanks.

Nurgle bikes? You could reasonably use them as a forward moving screen, outside of "I don't trust you" range, and catch up very quickly once they've tanked the overwatch and tied up some suckers in combat. T6 fast-movers are a problem for nearly everyone except us.

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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 04:21

It was interesting to read about your bad one eye open experience. Where did you have the most trouble with it? CC?

Nurgle bikers would probably not be a bad choice, T6 can be a pain. Unless you have splinter fire.

I've actually started converting an Obiltorator, so if he turns out I'll add another. Deep strike him/them, and let them play in the back field. I was also tempted to try and make a Mutilator. Similar application, deep strike him and force enemy to choose between firing at the mutilator, thus sparing my raiders, or target the raiders and cope a charge off the mutilator next turn.

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thesaltedwound
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:06

It did happen once in CC, when our Archon/Lord decided they didn't trust each other and ceased fighting completely. It didn't really matter for one turn against IG though Wink but we were mostly smart enough to assault different targets, and he was mostly running plague marines in an objective-holding role anyway.

Our opponent was clever enough to place some objective markers quite close together, and it transpired more than once that for us to be in control of both, we'd each need a unit holding one.

Also on quite a terrain-heavy 4x4 board, we found it harder than anticipated to keep two 750pt forces from coming into contact! Better planning would probably have alleviated a lot of the issues. We won anyway. High T shooty fearless allies are pretty great for holding things and letting you get on with the rest.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 15:23

Oblits are a good choice - hard to get rid of without dedicating an obscene amount of attention to them, particularly if they're in cover. Their deepstrike plus melta option is also very good for tanks, personally i think it's better than lances, particularly for blowing vehicles up with their AP1.

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 30 2014, 16:39

What we Dark Eldars lack the most of is resilience so I would say:

1x Cheap Lord with mark of nurgle
2x unit of 7 plague marines (obsec troops), 2 plasmas, Rhino, havoc missile launcher.

It may cost a bit (around 600 pts), but the plague marines are resilient enough to hold at leats one (or two)  side objectives, while the rest of your army is going on the opposite side.
If your opponent wants to get rid of the plague marines, he will spend (and split) a lot of his firepower on them, letting your Dark Eldar free to do their job on the other side.
If he does not, there are still 4 plasmas (rhinos have to fire points) and 2 havoc missile launchers to annoy him (48" twin linked F5 blast).

--> NB: In any case, for the same cost, wave serpents would play the same role and would do better ... battle brothers, highly resilient, great weaponry ...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 30 2014, 16:51

Not CSM but I've been thinking about getting some Chaos Daemons in as a replacement for my beloved Beasts. 15-20 Flesh Hounds with a Herald of Khorne on a Juggernaut seems like a decent unit that can absorb some fire and dish out some damage. Throw in an obligatory troop choice and you can probably get away with about 500 points.

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Teetengee
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeWed Nov 12 2014, 03:08

Mark of Nurgle Obliterators are nice units, although dark eldar do most of what they do fairly well (i.e. shooting things dead). Still obliterators are the ultimate in flexible firepower that usally lands just where you want it when you need it. Units of three are best, and mark of nurgle is almost a requirement to avoid instant deaths.

Plaguemarines in groups of 5-7 with two special weapons are very good tough as nails objective takers. They do reasonably well in rhinos, which should be kept cheap, only upgrades I would consider for an allied force are dirge casters. Make sure you take a nurgle lord to turn them into troops to give objective secured.

Blastmasters with 5 noisemarines are pretty good units too, (and keep that order in mind, the blastmaster is important, the noisemarines are extra wounds). Sonics are usually a waste though.

Bikers, especially nurgle bikers are fairly strong too, more expensive than reavers but much tougher and packing almost the same punch.

Also, heldrakes with bale flamers are never a bad choice, even after the nerf. They just need to be used with more planning.

Terminators are unfortunately a little expensive for what they do so I wouldn't suggest them.

Mutilators are also pretty bad because they take so long to get into close combat.

Other useful units are biker or jugger lords in 5 man spawn units. Those extra 15 wounds of toughness 5 go a long way even without an armor save, and they are a great delivery device for the rage filled combat monsters of chaos lords.

Never forget the beauty that is the vindicator, add a siege shield and have them advance through cover dropping pie plates. They work best in pairs though, so you might need a whole cad.


Additionally, using the crimson slaughter supplement changes up the artifacts but gives armywide fear to the csm units, which might stack well with some dark eldar abilities, and at the very least help with the tactical objective if it comes up.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 06 2014, 08:43

Have you looked into the recently released Forgeworld Imperial Armour 13; War Machines of the Lost and the Damned? If you and your buddies are ok with Forgeworld, it packs a serious punch for CSM armies.
Some seriously awesome options for Chaos packed in there.
Chaos Sicaran Battle Tank; 135pts gets you 6 S7 AP4 Rending shots that ignore jink saves on a BS4 platform. Can upgrade to add 9 S5 AP4 rending shots.
A Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with the Balestar (divination & re-roll psychic tests) twin-linking one of these is scary awesome, works for AA too.

Or if you're willing to look at the Renegades & Heretics army options (chaos Guard) in the same book, you can get the Hydra anti-air tanks for cheap.

A Chaos Lord/Sorc with Cult Troops of one stripe or another in a Land Raider fits in an allied detachment nicely, provides an excellent (not to mention durable) panic-inducer.
Or use a Dreadclaw. 9 CSM/Cult Marines with an HQ dropping into your enemy DZ turn 1 can be a solid distraction, especially since the Dreadclaw has its own ignores-cover attacks.

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Teetengee
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 07 2014, 04:37

There are a couple problems with that afaik I am afraid.
The Land raider is very weak compared to the loyalist variety due to the missing machine spirit rule.
I don't think the dreadclaw allows for 1st turn deepstrike. Also, it has to wait a turn before dropping to hover, so it takes 3 turns at least before getting much from it.
On brighter news, I have heard great things about the sicaran.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 08 2014, 03:25

They've updated the Dreadclaw rules recently, in IA 13: War Machines of the Lost and the Damned.
Dreadclaw DOES arrive 1st turn, it works like the loyalist drop pods now where 1/2 of your pods rounded up arrive turn 1. They arrive in hover mode so troops can disembark immediately if they want to. It can still fly around later, and has that area attack I mentioned including a fly-by attack mode. Plus it can be taken as a dedicated transport by CSMarines and Chosen, Dreadnoughts and Helbrutes, saving you fast attack slots.

Chaos Land Raiders lack PotMS, sure, but they got a price discount in exchange. Fair deal in my books. The reason the internet tends to view CSM LRs in less of a good light is that we only have the one variant, with lascannons/heavy bolter. No options makes people sad. Doesn't mean it is bad though, plus it is still our only in-codex assault vehicle.

One of my local players took 2 Sicarans to a tourney and placed 1st with them, using SM codex. He says he'd pay the points for them any day.

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Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 08 2014, 10:21

@Laughingcarp wrote:
One of my local players took 2 Sicarans to a tourney and placed 1st with them, using SM codex. He says he'd pay the points for them any day.

The Sicarans are absolute beasts! Dirt cheap, fast, resilient and with firepower that will wipe out Wave Serpents, let alone our paper airplanes. Any SM or CSM player would be well advised to look at these tanks if they can afford the models.

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Teetengee
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 08 2014, 16:19

@Laughingcarp wrote:
They've updated the Dreadclaw rules recently, in IA 13: War Machines of the Lost and the Damned.
Dreadclaw DOES arrive 1st turn, it works like the loyalist drop pods now where 1/2 of your pods rounded up arrive turn 1. They arrive in hover mode so troops can disembark immediately if they want to. It can still fly around later, and has that area attack I mentioned including a fly-by attack mode. Plus it can be taken as a dedicated transport by CSMarines and Chosen, Dreadnoughts and Helbrutes, saving you fast attack slots.

I have rarely been happier to be wrong.
As a chaos player I can tell you that the loss of potms is not worth the 20 points we get back, if we got 50 sure, but it the ability of the land raider to basically ignore the damage results that keep it from going forward is the main reason why it worked so well for chaos. Demonic possesson isn't a terrible way around this, but that means you cannot use the land raider on the big guns without serious risk. Khorne berzerkers in a possessed land raider works fine, but putting your lord in is dangerous. If you don't put daemonic possession on it, it often has trouble getting to the enemy lines in time.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 18 2014, 09:12

Count, yeah they're ridiculously good! And the Chaos ones can get rending on the heavy bolters as an upgrade, so you're looking at the Hvy 6 Autocannon that ignores Jink, then 9 Heavy Bolter shots with rending. It'll shred whatever it shoots at.

Teetengee, IA 13 is totally worth getting your hands on Smile
Sounds like your meta runs some pretty hefty anti-tank. Around here I rarely have trouble getting my Land Raider in without PotMS. The one time my 2 LR in my list didn't make it where I need them to go, both got 1-shotted by Tau Longstrike in a Hammerhead with railgun. He rolled a hit, then a pen, then an explodes two turns in a row, and I failed my cover saves. It was just dice lol.

Another think you may like in IA 13; they have vehicle Legacies. AKA fluff history supported by sweet little rules bumps, thinks like "you may force a re-roll of the Seize the Initiative roll (yours or your opponent's)", or buffing nearby cult units for ~20pts, or increasing Dirge Caster range to 12" (win!).
4 or 5 of these Legacies also give you Daemonic Possession with a boost; it allows YOU to CHOOSE if you roll to eat models or not when you embark/disembark.
And these legacies range from 10-25pts, so totally affordable.
Plus there are 3 or 4 pages of them.

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Teetengee
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 18 2014, 18:55

Those legacies would solve the loss of potms easily. Daemonic possession's ability to prevent vehicular slowdowns was not the problem I had with it. Brilliant.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 29 2014, 22:15

Ya they're awesome, I've run a couple of them now and they've all made small yet game-changing impacts in my matches.
Fearless cultists in a kill points game? Thank you!
Extra VP for a vehicle surviving, plus fear and daemonic possession? Heck yes!
12" bubble of no overwatch? Choo choo goes the death train!
Forcing a re-roll of a seize is obviously awesome.
And one lets you re-roll INDIVIDUAL DICE in a nearby casting of Malefic Daemonology. Epic win!

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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 30 2014, 06:30

I just wanted to say thanks for all the advice and opinions that have been presented! I'd kind of/sort of stopped playing and modelling for awhile, but I'm trying to get back into it.
Laughingcarp, I've gotten my hands on a copy of IA13, so I'll start looking into more carefully. The Dreadclaw sounds great, and I already have an "upside down" drop pod. I wonder if that'll be acceptable to stand in? And the Legacies you've described sound great.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 30 2014, 06:50

Cheers flak, this thread of yours has given me extra push to get all my stuff painted and play more games as well!

Have you read any of the fluff in IA 13 yet? Some pretty fun stuff.
Dread claws have performed fantastically for me thus far. Consider tossing in a Helbrute or Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought with flamers for some decently armoured burninating action.
I would totally let you use the upside down drop pod as a stand in if I were your opponent!

Any favourites from the book so far?

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Fleet Shadowmaker - Kabal of the Dying Sun; Cult of Marrow Excised; Coven of Lambent Hunger
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 30 2014, 07:18

Good to hear you've been inspired.
I haven't read the fluff yet, I kinda jumped ahead. I do plan on reading it though.
I'm excited to see the Achilles has made the transition from loyalist to traitor, I've had one for awhile screaming for a new paint job. Although I'm not a fan of the Quad Mortar replacing the Thunderfire. Such is the price of treachery I guess.
I've also got a decent mechanized Guard list that could pass as Renegade, so I'm reading through that. I like the Heretek Magus upgrade.
Screams of Lugganath and Auloth the Primordial Iterator are the Legacies I like thus far, but I'm sure I've missed some other good ones.

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"Whereas the duty of the Imperial Commander is either to seize or defend territory, the Dark Eldar make war only to steal. If, as a by-product of this, the are able to indulge their vile passion for murder, torture and other decadent acts, then they will joyfully do so, but this is not their primary goal"
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 31 2014, 08:45

Yeah we still don't quite get the nice everything, but it's an improvement. We can nab Renegade Guard Wyverns, which kind of make up for Thunderfire Cannons. Plus they're cheaper, and it sounds like you may already have some.
Figure you'll ever ally Renegade Guard to Dark Eldar?

Screams of Lugganath is one I'll be testing out soon (so awesome!).
Primordial Iterator has some serious benefits too, though I don't run much Khornate stuff so you'll have to let me know how it works. Though going by the fluff, maybe they meant Icon of Vengeance?
Perdus Rift Anomaly looks super useful too.


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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 08 2015, 02:36

So will be testing out Screams of Lugganath on a Land Raider with Typhus and 4 Nurgle Terminators soon, as well as allying in a Grotesquerie to a CSM list.
1500pts
-Nurgle Chaos Biker Lord w/Daemonheart, Slaughterer's Horns, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation, Blight Grenades, Lightning Claw & Power Fist
-5 Nurgle Spawn
-5 Raptors, 2 Meltaguns
-5 Raptors, 2 Meltaguns
-10 Cultists
-10 Cultists
-10 Cultists
-Maulerfiend
-Maulerfiend

-Haemonculus, Liquifier, Sindriq's Sump
-3 Grots, Aberration upgrade with Scissorhand, Raider w/Sails
-3 Grots, Aberration upgrade with Scissorhand, Raider w/Sails

Maulerfiends start on one flank, Spawn with Lord between them for cover. Grotesque Raiders on the opposite side. Cultists scatter, hide, then try not to die. Raptors either Deep Strike or run up behind the Maulerfiends, cover hopping.
Alternately, drop 1 unit of Raptors, 1 unit of Cultists, and the blight grenades for a Heldrake.
Think this is reasonable, something you'd be willing to run? What would you do differently?

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Teetengee
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 08 2015, 15:33

I would drop for the heldrake, unless you are playing maelstrom. As the heldrake will deal more damage, help deal with flyers, and has greater resilience.

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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 13 2015, 06:40

I too would opt for the 'Drake. I think it'll do more than the Raptors and Cultists.

I tried out an Achilles with Tzenahk the Occluder (wanted that Tzeentch vibe) with a Warpsmaith inside. The Achilles was indestructible.
The downside being my opponent knew this, and proceeded to ignore it, choosing instead to attack my much weaker units with his fast moving Blood Angels. Even with the exrta VPs The Occluder gives, it was not a good day for my DE.

I think you have the right idea laughingcarp, of allying in DE to Chaos, not the other way around. The sacrifices I had to make with my DE to squeeze in the Achilles and its associates was crippling.
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tokendeadguy
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 12 2015, 21:43

Deep strike terminators with chain fists or dual lightning claws. Bowels will be released. Also mauler fiends and hellbrutes make great tanks that will draw fire or punish enemy armor and infantry for not focusing them down.

If your enemy doesn't want to be hacked to pieces and lose his land raider/leman russes in an assault, he will shift fire to these tanky units and leave your squishey transports and ravagers to fire at regular weapon skill and do their dakka thing unmolested.

The point cost for taking havocs with lascannons or obliterators is very high and could be better spent elsewhere(dont rely on 3-4 dice rolls to take out front armor on most tanks. Also keep in mind the weapon selection special rule for oblits.). Instead I would take chaos elites like plague or noise marines(perfect for clearing cover or holding objectives). Keep in mind that it will cost a crazy amount of points to give chaos units wargear(twice the points for a lascannon instead of a dark lance?), icons, or marks.

As far as allying with another chaos player I haven't the faintest idea what to do. I would prefer to tailor both army lists to complement each other.
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killedbydeath
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PostSubject: Re: Call of Chaos   Call of Chaos I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 19 2015, 08:03

Well if you take Crimson slaugter ally. You can get a chaos sorc lvl 3 with Prophet of the Voices making him demon and a unit of 8-10 Possessed (as troop). If you ask me you need mark of tzeentch, a melta bomb, spell familiar and the boon of chaos is not a bad option for a little extra for sorc and champion in the possessed. Maybe a rhino

Why would you use close to 500 points!? Well they really hard to kill and have something dark eldar don't armor. Yes they not the best CC unit normally but the CS they have a new table making them shrounded, beast or a +3 invu. save and rending. The mark give them a 4++ or if you get the "good" roll a 2++ save. So a super hard to kill CC unit or really fast.
The other thing is sorc with demon. Now you can summon demons with a very little chance of perils and failing (the spell familiar give re-roll psyker test).

Why do I think this is good. Well my dark eldar leaks units especially in the last turns. The few CC units I have like grots and talos need support after suffering 2-3 turns of hits. But if you summon a few demons units there is more targets and even better some support that you a tailor to the need in the single game (bloodletters against SM armor, flamers against orks/nids).

So yes 500 points is a lot but if you summon 2-3 units the price is 500 points for the sorc, possessed + 200-300+ points of free demons.
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