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 Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.

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The Red King
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 07:15

I have to agree with betray here. When he said "if this was the only formation in the book it wouldn't be a problem."

He's right, We shouldn't have to look at another formation to decipher what the formation in question means.

In the end the page that describes how formations work and the page with this formation are for all intents and purposes the only two in existence when adding that formation to your list.

It doesn't really matter what another formation says because this formation says 1 talos (which is a unit name) and under "formation restrictions" where it has been explicitly stated by the rules that this is where you will find any restrictions on numbers etc. It says none. RAW = done.

Once you start adding in the other formations you start hitting snares and start having to interpret this and justify that. Well don't. That's not our job and RAI is a slippery slope.

Without looking anywhere else but page 51. And the formation tell me how that means that 1 talos is not a unit of talos and thus capable of purchasing additional models while still being 1 talos (which again is a name of a unit and thus could be accurately called 1 unit of talos). Sure they use "unit of" on a different sheet but that's not this formation. That's a different formation completely unrelated rules wise to the dark artisan. I mean it's even possible they were written by different people.

It's easy to say "if they meant unit they would have said unit." But by that logic if they meant model they would have said model. It's not our place to divine the true meaning behind the rules.

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valmir
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 07:33

If they say "1 Talos" there is genuine ambiguity as to whether they mean a single Talos, or a single unit of Talos. That is where applying context (i.e., the formulation as it is used - consistently, I might add - for other formations) comes in.

Try replacing the name with another unit - "1 Kabalite Warriors". Doesn't work. In this case, the addition of "unit of" is actually necessary if you want it - grammatically - to mean anything other than a single model.
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The_Burning_Eye
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 09:00

@valmir wrote:
If they say "1 Talos" there is genuine ambiguity as to whether they mean a single Talos, or a single unit of Talos. That is where applying context (i.e., the formulation as it is used - consistently, I might add - for other formations) comes in.

Try replacing the name with another unit - "1 Kabalite Warriors". Doesn't work. In this case, the addition of "unit of" is actually necessary if you want it - grammatically - to mean anything other than a single model.

^This. The ambiguity comes from the fact that both the model and the unit are called Talos. In other places they refer to '1 Haemonculus' etc.

My issue with your interpretation Betray is that you're assuming that because you can take a unit of Talos, and there's a restrictions section elsewhere in the datasheet then they must mean unit. However by specifying in the formation breakdown that the section relates to number and type, the interpretation of others is that 1 Talos means 1 Talos model.

It could mean 1 model, or it could mean 1 unit, the datasheet is not specific enough to define that because it does not state whether Talos refers to the model or the unit.

However

When there is a lack of clarity in such a matter, it is only reasonable to refer to other examples of how datasheets are written to give us a clearer picture of interpretation (i use the word interpretation instead of intent here for a very specific reason - intent is not clear, but a consistent interpretation of wording is). The Corpsethief Claw formation refers to the same type of model as in the Dark Artisan, and in the formation section specifies that it is a unit of Talos, further restricting it to a unit of 5.

TL:DR Neither interpretation is clear from the datasheet, which does not specify 1 unit or 1 model. Reference to other consistent methods of detailing formations indicates that 1 model is represented as '1 x' whereas units are represented as '1 unit of x'.

Until it may be clarified by an FAQ, the reading of the formation is imprecise, but I personally would feel like i were exploiting my opponent by arguing that 1 Talos means 1 unit of Talos.

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BetrayTheWorld
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:10

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

^This. The ambiguity comes from the fact that both the model and the unit are called Talos.

Technically this isn't relevent because the definitions page tells us the section in question is specifically for units, rather than models. So any ambiguity between the model name and unit name is clarified by it being in the spot for units.

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:

It could mean 1 model, or it could mean 1 unit, the datasheet is not specific enough to define that because it does not state whether Talos refers to the model or the unit.

But it is, actually. Besides being in the section defined as "Number and type of Units Section", If you look at the next section down from formation, called "Formation Restrictions", that is a section specifically defined as the place on a formation datasheet to restrict the number of models in a unit, should there be any restrictions. It's not empty. They didn't omit anything. They specifically said "NONE". No restrictions on the number of models. Even if they made an error, and added a restriction on the number of models to the "# of units" section, there should still be something in the "# of model restrictions" section, other than it saying "There are no restrictions to the number of models in the unit." Because, that's what it says with the word "NONE".

As I've said from the beginning, if you take the definitions of these sections, and just renamed the sections the definitions they're supposed to use, so that people wouldn't have to look at 2 pages to see it, pretty much everyone would have come to the conclusion I did, and perhaps later people would have questioned why OTHER formations mentioned "a unit of". Following the definitions page, the formation says:

Unit number and type: 1 Talos
Unit Size, Equipment, and Transport restrictions: None
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valmir
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:27

As I've said from the beginning, it is still talking about units. It is saying that there is a unit of 1 Talos.

On the RAW-includes-intent side of things, I think a part of RAW has to be the way the language was intended to function. Not a kind of psychic guessing what GW might intend a rule to be, but a usage of all surrounding information to understand the linguistic intent. Which is, after all, what language reception is.

And in this case, it is clear that GW thinks "2 Wracks" fails to express the same thing as "2 units of Wracks". Even more clear is that there is a distinction between "1 Talos" and "1 unit of Talos".

I do see what you're saying, I really do. And you're not wrong, as such. But RAW needs to be understood in its full context.

Yes, ideally you would only need to look at pages 51 and 56. But when other information comes to light that potentially modifies the written meaning of a rule, it's unreasonable to exclude it.
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BetrayTheWorld
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:50

@valmir wrote:

Yes, ideally you would only need to look at pages 51 and 56. But when other information comes to light that potentially modifies the written meaning of a rule, it's unreasonable to exclude it.

It's not, because, where do you draw the line on intent? Let's assume the coven book ONLY had the Dark Artisan formation in it.

In that event, if you followed the definitions page, everyone would come to the same conclusion as I, because -that's what it says-.

Now, someone could then come along with a completely different codex, written by a completely different author, where it said "A unit of space marines" on a formation. Are we now supposed to take that to mean that our codex doesn't say what it obviously says, because of an example in another, completely unrelated codex? What if the author of this codex was actually following the outline for formation datasheets, while the author of that codex slipped up and just wrote it how he mistakenly -thought- the datasheets were supposed to be laid out. Are we to make assumptions that one writer was correct and the other was incorrect?

How do we determine which is which if not for the rules that they lay out for us in regard to how formation datasheets are to be structured? Correctness by committee?

"Yes, I know the rules say that is the place for units, but all of these other formations contain a redundant statement of "A unit of", so it HAS to be that way."

"If we find that more people say that 2+2=3, then it must be so."


I refuse to accept that form of logic. Seeing 5 people, or a thousand for that matter, in front of you screwing up is not an excuse for you to follow suit. For every law, of which there is only ONE, there will be countless examples of that law/rule being broken.

New example. There is a law against spitting on the sidewalk. Every resteraunt in town has a sign out front that says, "No spitting on the sidewalk." A new resteraunt opens up, and they don't have a sign. Does that mean the rule doesn't apply to them? Of course not, it's still the law.

Just because they didn't put a sign out front that said "A unit of" doesn't mean that it makes it any less a spot dedicated for units.
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valmir
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 19:12

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is saying that popular opinion should be the rule.

But your suggestion to assume that there was only Dark Artisan is non-starter. It's *not* the only formation. There are plenty of others to compare language with.

If there were only Dark Artisan, then we would be having a similar discussion, but without any of the nice context for what it might mean. Because the language is genuinely ambiguous. I'll say it again: there is nothing on page 51 that prevents the formation composition section from including the number of models in a unit.
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BetrayTheWorld
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 19:26

@valmir wrote:

But your suggestion to assume that there was only Dark Artisan is non-starter. It's *not* the only formation. There are plenty of others to compare language with.

Example:
There is a law against spitting on the sidewalk. Every resteraunt in town has a sign out front that says, "No spitting on the sidewalk." A new resteraunt opens up, and they don't have a sign. Does that mean the rule doesn't apply to them? Of course not, it's still the law.

Just because they didn't put a sign out front that said "A unit of" doesn't mean that it makes it any less a spot dedicated for units.

Those other formations are the other resteraunts.

@valmir wrote:

there is nothing on page 51 that prevents the formation composition section from including the number of models in a unit.

Well, only if you ignore that there is a definitive place FOR the number of models in the unit. But in the very next section, if you answer the question, "Are there any restrictions on the number of models in the unit?" with the answer, "NONE", then that directly contradicts any argument you can make for number of models ambiguously put into the incorrect section anyhow, which is exactly what they did in the dark artisan formation.
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The_Burning_Eye
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 19:34

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Well, only if you ignore that there is a definitive place FOR the number of models in the unit. But in the very next section, if you answer the question, "Are there any restrictions on the number of models in the unit?" with the answer, "NONE", then that directly contradicts any argument you can make for number of models ambiguously put into the incorrect section anyhow, which is exactly what they did in the dark artisan formation.

The problem is that you're still having to make the assumption that in the previous section, the reference to '1 Talos' actually means '1 unit of Talos'. Yes, I get that the wording is ambiguous, I also get that this is the section where it relates to the number and type of units, but in every other case except the scarlet epicureans formation, which also relates to Cronos, where a unit specified in the number and type of unit section can take more than 1 model, it is referred to as 'x unit(s) of y'. To assume that this might be a mistake or interpret it as though those other formations don't exist is to interpret the intent contrary to the other evidence in the book

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valmir
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 19:48

As an aside, your example about spitting on the sidewalk - just like your example about jaywalking - doesn't work as an analogy. The entire book, here, constitutes rules. Not just page 51. In precisely the same way that, when you go to court for spitting on the sidewalk or whatever, your innocence/guilt/sentence is determined by the judge in reference to precedent and other similar cases.
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BetrayTheWorld
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 22:04

The entire book isn't rules. To say that is simply asinine, and makes any intelligent discussion on any GW product moot.

I don't agree with you. The analogy works perfectly. There is a rule. People break it. Doesn't negate the rule. It's your claim that because it's in the same book as the rule that it doesn't apply? You could use a similar theory in my analogy. If it's the person who MADE the law spitting on the sidewalk, does that make it ok? No. It's still the law.
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valmir
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 22:30

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The entire book isn't rules. To say that is simply asinine, and makes any intelligent discussion on any GW product moot.

Easy tiger.

Okay, pages 48-78 are rules, albeit some in the form of optional missions. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're trying to say with your last post.

All rules are to be read in their FULL context. Just like the law. I don't know what your background with the legal profession is, but the analogies you are drawing don't really fit with the present situation.
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average joe
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 29 2014, 01:03

[quote="BetrayTheWorld"]To say that is asinine, and makes any intelligent discussion on any GW product moot.quote]

Yep, intelligent conversations on GW products are moot. Actually reading through this thread I'm inclined to think they're not intelligent either. Wink Enjoyable, but not necessarily intelligent at least from a hard core, logic based, debating mindset. BetrayTheWorld, as you already know, you can't argue anything GW rules related using strict or narrow terms, structures, etc. So why even attempt to? At heart RAW arguments assume the writers intent was to be specific, concise, and exact in verbiage. GW doesn't write that way. With this in mind I'd caution against over zealously arguing a point such as your RAW basis interpretation of the issue.
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Evil Space Elves
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 29 2014, 01:33

I'm giving a general "Cool your jets" to everyone here. It's one thing to have a discussion or disagreement on a rule, but this has turned into a peeing contest. I would advise that unless you have something constructive to add to the discussion here, don't. If the contest begins again the thread will be locked.

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Evil Space Elves
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Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models.   Wait, Dark Artisan allows you to combine two UNITS, Not Models. - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 29 2014, 03:13

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I'm done discussing that aspect of this conversation. It is going nowhere.

This thread is going nowhere productive again. Thread locked to avoid everyone trying to get in one last shot.

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