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 Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 17:12

@Thor665 wrote:
Are the other dudes characters?

If no - then clearly no.
If yes - then I suspect you would have an argument.

This. You'd have to be in a challenge with a character, kill that character, and have excess wounds spill onto a different character. It'd basically necessitate an independent character being in the squad you're fighting, alond with a seargent character, and no grunts left.

It could happen, but the circumstances of it happening will be very uncommon.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 17:17

I dont think an argument will ensue. Wounds are inflicted, allocated and "unsaved" within a challenge. IMHO it does not matter whether they are allocated in the unit of regular dudes or Character or nowhere at all. And the Wounds were inflicted and inflicted against WS and T of the "challengee" (hope its the right word :-)). Any thoughts on that?

Oh. I see where I am wrong... nvm. :-)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 18:57

Yup, wounds have to be applied to a character.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 21:09

@aurynn wrote:
Just thinking... My Huskblade Archon did cause 3 unsaved wounds with his Huskblade. Therefore he caused 3 Instant Death hits. Does he get +3 for 3 unsaved wounds? +W of his enemy for 1x ID? +3xW of the enemy for 3x ID? Or +3 for 3 unsaved wounds and +3xW of his enemy for 3x ID?

IMHO common sense says he gets +3 as considering ID as adding +W would mean adding it multiple times if multiple IDs were scored.

Well as already mentioned, wounds in challenges spill over, so the first ID would kills him. Archon gets+3S and the other 2 ID wounds go into the squad.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 06:57

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
Just thinking... My Huskblade Archon did cause 3 unsaved wounds with his Huskblade. Therefore he caused 3 Instant Death hits. Does he get +3 for 3 unsaved wounds? +W of his enemy for 1x ID? +3xW of the enemy for 3x ID? Or +3 for 3 unsaved wounds and +3xW of his enemy for 3x ID?

IMHO common sense says he gets +3 as considering ID as adding +W would mean adding it multiple times if multiple IDs were scored.

Well as already mentioned, wounds in challenges spill over, so the first ID would kills him. Archon gets+3S and the other 2 ID wounds go into the squad.

What do you mean - first ID? Which one is it? :-) They happen at the same time. Game-wise. In reality there is a sequence OFC. But... as I said - as no model can be affected by the same rule twice, sequence is irrelevant. Any ONE of the IDs applies to the model. The rest can either apply to another model or be lost.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 07:19

@aurynn wrote:

What do you mean - first ID? Which one is it? :-) They happen at the same time. Game-wise. In reality there is a sequence OFC. But... as I said - as no model can be affected by the same rule twice, sequence is irrelevant. Any ONE of the IDs applies to the model. The rest can either apply to another model or be lost.

Which one? Choose one of the three ;-)

No seriously. Just like when shooting at a unit.
Take as many wounds, so that you have enough to kill the model and let him try to save them. In this case 1.
So there is your sequence, game wise. The enemy has to roll for each wound separately, as each can kill him instantly. The rest spill over. If he has no means to protect himself, then the same sequence applies but you do not need to roll for saves.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 09:36

I concur. :-)
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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:30

I think the Archon would still get only the strength bonus equal to the original number of his opponent's wounds (in aurynn's example - 4) but the first wound insta-killing the first opponent, the rest of the attacks should distribute among the rest of the opponent's unit. This on the other hand probably doesn't give the Archon any further strength boost, because he technically isn't in a challenge anymore, his opponent being torn to bits and all.. Very Happy
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:35

@Ly'khal the Exiled wrote:
I think the Archon would still get only the strength bonus equal to the original number of his opponent's wounds (in aurynn's example - 4) but the first wound insta-killing the first opponent, the rest of the attacks should distribute among the rest of the opponent's unit. This on the other hand probably doesn't give the Archon any further strength boost, because he technically isn't in a challenge anymore, his opponent being torn to bits and all.. Very Happy

Actually he is still in a challenge until the end of the fight sub-phase.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:44

I think that the soultrap+huskblade combo has more *potential* benefit than the soultrap+agonizer combo. With a huskblade, the strength bonus from the soultrap can have you potentially wounding on 3's and 2's, whereas the most that you can possibly get out of an agonizer is a re-rollable 4+ to wound.

Of course, the 'startup' cost for the soultrap+huskblade combo is much greater, because it's impossible to get the archon's strength above 3 until at least halfway through the game, which makes scoring the initial strength bonus's that much more difficult. At least, with the agonizer, you won't have to worry about wounding on 5's. Therefore, the agonizer is certainly the more reliable and safe option.
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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:46

Ok, intresting.. Very Happy then he should get the bonus from other characters if the excess wounds distrubute among any.

I didn't notice if this was brought up yet but did anyone consider the agonizer being poisoned now? Combined with the soul trap, you'll soon be looking at re-rolls to wounds.. With Eternal Warrior being the new hotness, I think the agonizer is more viable option. Of course, this varies with the meta.
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Ly'khal the Exiled
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:56

Krayd only 4+ with the ago? Doesn't the brb say that you wound on the fixed number UNLESS a minor roll is required.. So, a Archon that takes say 2 wounds against a SM librarian. He next faces a SM captain, having a S 5, wounding him on 3+, still getting the re-roll. Am I wrong with this logic?
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 16:56

@krayd wrote:
With a huskblade, the strength bonus from the soultrap can have you potentially wounding on 3's and 2's, whereas the most that you can possibly get out of an agonizer is a re-rollable 4+ to wound.

Not quite, check the poisoned rule - it says the weapon wounds on a fixed amount UNLESS a lower result would be required. In addition, if the user or weapon's strength is higher than the opponent's toughness it must reroll failed to Wound rolls in combat.

So I still think the agoniser benefits more from the soul trap.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 17:40

Ah. I forgot about that feature of the poisoned rule - mind was still stuck in 5th edition.

That does make the agonizer a much better choice overall. Though the huskblade can theoretically chew through multi-wound models at a much quicker pace.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:25

I agree. Aggy currently is better for soul trap, imo.

One thing I'd like to add to this conversation, though. The huskblade in the old codex was only listed in the codex as a "power weapon", and the AP2 part was added via FAQ. It's entirely possible that whoever wrote the codex was doing their typical copy/paste job, and didn't realize that the huskblade had been FAQed to be AP2. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if the huskblade gets FAQed again to be an AP2 weapon.

Speaking of which, could we get that added to the FAQ? Is the huskblade supposed to be AP2 or AP3?
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:27

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I agree. Aggy currently is better for soul trap, imo.

One thing I'd like to add to this conversation, though. The huskblade in the old codex was only listed in the codex as a "power weapon", and the AP2 part was added via FAQ. It's entirely possible that whoever wrote the codex was doing their typical copy/paste job, and didn't realize that the huskblade had been FAQed to be AP2. Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if the huskblade gets FAQed again to be an AP2 weapon.

Speaking of which, could we get that added to the FAQ? Is the huskblade supposed to be AP2 or AP3?

I would think that too, if they hadn't decreased the cost of the huskblade, which suggests to me that they wanted to "balance" it by making it AP3.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 18:30

@krayd wrote:

I would think that too, if they hadn't decreased the cost of the huskblade, which suggests to me that they wanted to "balance" it by making it AP3.

Possibly. Or perhaps the person doing the copy/paste balance job was like, "Why is this AP3 instadeath weapon so expensive? It should probably cost less."

Still worth knowing for sure. If the huskblade got a 10 point decrease, but remained AP2, how awesome would that be? lol
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 14:22

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@krayd wrote:

I would think that too, if they hadn't decreased the cost of the huskblade, which suggests to me that they wanted to "balance" it by making it AP3.

Possibly. Or perhaps the person doing the copy/paste balance job was like, "Why is this AP3 instadeath weapon so expensive? It should probably cost less."

Still worth knowing for sure. If the huskblade got a 10 point decrease, but remained AP2, how awesome would that be? lol

There is but one reason why the huskblade is AP3. So that there is a reason to take a succubus. If the archon had any AP2CC weapon then the new shiny weapon for the succubus wouldn't be used that often. All for the internal balance.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 14:46

^This. Archon becomes a good warrior and a bully. Succubus becomes the ultimate expression of DE combat skill and taking out any opponent.

In relation to the original topic - I'm far more inclined to the Agoniser now (in fact I've already re-modelled my Archon) on my Archon, targetting him at lower level characters like Librarians and Chaplains. Husk blade being ID is nice, but most characters that is likely to matter against are also going to have an invun.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:30

@Crazy_Irish wrote:

There is but one reason why the huskblade is AP3. So that there is a reason to take a succubus. If the archon had any AP2CC weapon then the new shiny weapon for the succubus wouldn't be used that often. All for the internal balance.

I don't necessarily agree with this. First, the archite glaive can be used two-handed for +1S, which is HUGE for DE. That alone could give someone reason to use a succubus instead of an archon. The Succy also has improved WS, a built-in invuln in CC that's better than an archon's natural armor save, and free access to combat drugs, which archon's can't get at all any more.

Would there be more of a compelling reason to use an archon if the huskblade were AP2? Obviously.

Does that completely eliminate the utility of a succubus? Not at all.

That being said, I personally would love to see the huskblades FAQed back to AP2, but am also a bit disappointed that succubi options are so limited. Shouldn't wyches/succubi have access to webway portals?


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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:54

a Succubus does have access to webway portals, it says so in her wargear options. It's just separate from arcane wargear. It's the only item she can take from arcane wargear.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 18:56

I previously skimmed her wargear section, only looking at the bolded stuff and must have missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 19:33

no problem Smile

I'm really liking this latest version of the Succubus, I had never played one before, but I'm quite excited to try one out now.

But yeah it really does seem like shes the option you take if you want an ap2 combat powerhouse HQ.
With the archon being your more generic/specialized for multiple roles option. I don't think the lack of AP2 is a massive blow to the archon though. You can still stick him with incubi if you need ap2 in the unit. I think the biggest loss he's gotten was that he used to be a challenge monster, and now he isn't which is kinda sad but he is certainly still one of our best HQ options through his versatility, and his epic 2+ inv.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 21:12

@Caldria wrote:

I'm really liking this latest version of the Succubus, I had never played one before, but I'm quite excited to try one out now.
Me too. I really like here changes and i am looking forwards to fielding here someday ;-)

@BetrayTheWorld: sure +1S is very good for any dark Eldar, but with the soul trap, the possibility is even greater. Sure the succubus has become better overall and I'm pretty happy about it. But the fact remains that an archon with a AP2 weapon would be a superior character as he is more survivable - thus easier to play, more likely to be chosen.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 28 2014, 22:09

@Crazy_Irish wrote:

But the fact remains that an archon with a AP2 weapon would be a superior character as he is more survivable - thus easier to play, more likely to be chosen.

I don't agree with that. He would be superior for some things, sure. And yes, with shadowfield and an AP2 weapon, he'd be pretty good in CC. But the +1S of the succubus would make her more valuable against a wider range of opponents. For the huskblade/soul trap to work, you have to be able to wound your opponents in a challenge to begin with, which isn't a piece of cake with S3.


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