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 Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 25 2014, 22:39

Was just looking at the Soul Trap again today as I crunched the numbers of the Aggie vs. the Huskblade in my desire to make the best h2h Archon build I can.

I realized something I had mentally whitewashed before - it doesn't trigger off of killing a character in a challenge. It triggers off inflicting unsaved wounds.

So if I grab a Captain and beat him down - I would get +3 str from the Soul Trap, not +1.
Which would seem to suggest that the Agoniser is really a superior tool for pairing with the Soul Trap as, unlike the Huskblade, it will earn you each and every boost possible.

I will admit I was already favoring the Aggie in any case, but for an assault Archon build I think this one sold me.

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 00:46

I was thinking the same thing - I used to prefer the huskblade by far, but recently I just love the idea of an agoniser archon (I don't know if thats because of the nerf to the huskblade or if I've just changed my view on things)

Interesting since the succubus used to be the agoniser carrier - and it seems like their roles have been reversed, with the archon losing AP2 and succubus gaining. So it seems fitting that now the agoniser is more of a go to choice for the archon. The switch to poison for the agoniser is what makes it a solid choice regardless as well. As the agoniser is more useful than the huskblade at the start, and now that it's poison, also benefits from the soul trap as the game goes.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 01:48

As I understand it, if you inflict ID on a multi-wound model, you'd get the number of (remaining) wounds added to your strength, so the agoniser isn't necessarily better in that regard since with the huskblade you can get that +3 for example in a single hit.

That's not to say that I think the huskblade is better, of course.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 01:54

@Erebus wrote:
As I understand it, if you inflict ID on a multi-wound model, you'd get the number of (remaining) wounds added to your strength, so the agoniser isn't necessarily better in that regard since with the huskblade you can get that +3 for example in a single hit.
Per the BRB - those wounds count for combat resolution.
But I see nowhere in the rules to support the idea that they count in any other way.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 01:54

I agree that it would likely need an FAQ entry to count those wounds for the soul trap - otherwise they don't seem to count.

On the Agonizer note, I think with the overall changes, I've been convinced to like it more - wounding basic MEQ on 5s can make for a sad panda. I don't even like the soul trap (challenges are too easy to decline) but if I did, I'd also favor the Agonizer there. You are going to get fed crappy 1W models or dudes with Eternal Warrior if they accept your challenge anyway. Wounding them more often seems much stronger than trying to hulk out on 5s from time to time.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 02:14

I'll admit, I don't actually get the ducking challengers thing as an issue.

Functionally, you're taking a 10 point upgrade that serves as a 'Danger, Here Be Dragons' sign on your Archon.

Most characters are part of squads to add to their leadership and boost their combat capabilities in h2h.
Yes, I agree, maybe the sarge will sit out the fight, or the Comissar, or whatever. Sweet, I paid 10 points to keep my opponent's doubtless more expensive character model out of the combat. That's a win for me.

Or, he can come and fight my Archon, in which case it's also likely a win for me on anything I'm willing to issue a challenge to.

So it's 10 points for a win/win even if you never get it to trigger once, as far as I can tell.
Sure, duck my challenge and sit there rubbing your power fist while I mulch the rest of your squad. I'm okay with that. Carry on, Sarge!

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 02:57

Precedent has been set by GW that if you insta-kill something, it counts as doing however many wounds they had in damage. This is most readily seen in the assault results section of the rulebook, where it specifically spells out that those wounds count as having been done. This being the case, I'd say there is a pretty strong argument that if you instakill a 3 wound model, you get +3 just as if you'd done 3 seperate wounds to him with the aggy.

I still think you're probably overall better off with the aggy, but I thought this was at least worth mentioning. This probably won't be FAQed.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 03:14

I think it could be addressed in a FAQ, but I don't think it is supported in the current rules.

If you suffer an Instant Death wound (triggering Soul Trap since the character did it) you are reduced to 0 wounds.
That is an effect of Instant Death, that is not really the character causing wounds.

To my mind the same logic would be if I blew up a vehicle - if units nearby died to the explosion are they dying to wounds inflicted by my character, or wounds inflicted from a rule effect? I agree my character caused their death, but I don't think I could justify causing the wounds.

Why do you think it's supported in the rules?

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 03:20

If the character didn't cause the wounds, then who did?
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 03:31

@Timatron wrote:
If the character didn't cause the wounds, then who did?

This. In the above example, the wounds were caused by the transport. The transport had a rule that it blew up, and therefore it did the damage.

That's not the case with the huskblade and archon. The huskblade is basically a tool to give the archon the instant death special rule. If one of the archon's special rules kills an enemy, then I'd say the archon killed that enemy/eliminated the wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 08:27

@Thor665 wrote:
If you suffer an Instant Death wound (triggering Soul Trap since the character did it) you are reduced to 0 wounds.
That is an effect of Instant Death, that is not really the character causing wounds.

Well given that it's the Huskblade with the rule and the Huskblade that causes the wounds... do we ever get a +1?

The Huskblade caused the wound, not the character.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 08:34

Quick question relating to the "who done it" train of thought. Other day a deepstrike mishap cost me a unit of wracks. My opponent said this was first blood for him. Is that accurate? And further by what logic? I ran into a rock or something. Not exactly the valiant battle story for which spes mehreens are known.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 08:54

Quote :
My opponent said this was first blood for him.

He is right.
There are a lot of stupid ways to get first blood.
Friend of mine run Chaos Daemons, got a bad roll on Warpstorm, a bad roll on the target character and a very bad morale roll. HIS turn 1 (without me doing anything at all) scored me First Blood and Slay the Warlord.
Quote :

First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be completely destroyed during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 11:45

@Thor665 wrote:

Functionally, you're taking a 10 point upgrade that serves as a 'Danger, Here Be Dragons' sign on your Archon.

Most characters are part of squads to add to their leadership and boost their combat capabilities in h2h.
Yes, I agree, maybe the sarge will sit out the fight, or the Comissar, or whatever. Sweet, I paid 10 points to keep my opponent's doubtless more expensive character model out of the combat. That's a win for me.

Or, he can come and fight my Archon, in which case it's also likely a win for me on anything I'm willing to issue a challenge to.

Precisely what I think! And the best thing is, that I get to choose which model of his has to stay out of the fighting!
And the agoniser don't care if it first slays the sergeant and then the chaff or just the chaff.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 14:06

@MyNameDidntFit wrote:
Well given that it's the Huskblade with the rule and the Huskblade that causes the wounds... do we ever get a +1?
Yes, because we cause an unsaved wound to an opposing character in assault.

The question is - are the wounds lost due to instant death ever inflicted or is it just an auto reduce that doesn't count as inflicting unsaved wounds? If it's the former, than Soul Trap would trigger, if it's the latter then it would not.

I will also apologize in advance for this next sentence since inflited wounds caused in an attack and wounds a model has both use the word 'wound' in the game terminology, so this sentence will get ugly fast. Sorry!

My issue is - in the rules for instant death, it never says to apply unsaved wounds, or wounds of any kind, it simply says to reduce the model's wounds. So while wounds are going away, I do not think the wording of the rule supports the idea that unsaved wounds are being inflicted. An unsaved wound is a specific game term - wounds that happen after it are not.

Do you have anything that casts doubt on my thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:17

Let's see: An unsaved wound is one point, having ones, well, life points reduced to zero is different.
You can do that by wounding several times, or terminate them instantly. Instant death, is the english term, I think.
The german codex differs here, I would assume, since our models have life points, not wounds...

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:52

Just thinking... My Huskblade Archon did cause 3 unsaved wounds with his Huskblade. Therefore he caused 3 Instant Death hits. Does he get +3 for 3 unsaved wounds? +W of his enemy for 1x ID? +3xW of the enemy for 3x ID? Or +3 for 3 unsaved wounds and +3xW of his enemy for 3x ID?

IMHO common sense says he gets +3 as considering ID as adding +W would mean adding it multiple times if multiple IDs were scored.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:55

Instant Death in assault, page 52 for relevant rules, *does* seem to make a slight argument for them counting (albeit read across two paragraphs). But it does say you total all *unsaved wounds* suffered. Then it later notes that you also count all wounds "suffered" and says those include wounds from Instant Death causing reduction to zero.

So, even though they are separate paragraphs, they are about the same thing sort of (even though that breaks the rules of English Surprised ) so maybe the counter is - since you need to total all 'unsaved wounds' and it later says ID wounds count towards the total, that means those wounds count as unsaved and therefore would allow the Soul Trap to trigger.

@Aurynn - functionally, wouldn't he suffer the three unsaved first and at the same time, and then the instant death effect would trigger reducing him from 0 wounds to 0 wounds for a net gain of +3 str? That is how I would read it regardless of if ID wounds boost Soul Trap.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:57

I think I'm reversing my opinion.
I think any wounds caused by the ID effect would count.
(not Acro's example, mind, just, like, say, 1 ID hit to a 3 wound model that caused ID would grant +3 Str.)

I do think this needs a FAQ though, as my argument for justifying it remains super thin.

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Last edited by Thor665 on Sun Oct 26 2014, 15:58; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:57

@Thor - Lets pretend the model has 4W originally then. :-D Would it be +3? +4? or +6?
There are 3 ID effects happening at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 15:59

3 Wounds would be inflicted (+3 Str)
Then Instant Death would trigger, reducing him to zero wounds (1 wound - and +1 or +0 Str depending on your value call there)

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 16:03

Well ID is a special rule and a model cannot be affected by the rule twice, right? So there is actually only one ID effect. Weeeell... perhaps +4 is the right answer. Although It makes me twitch somehow...
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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 16:15

I've added this question to the FAQ thread.

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 16:23

Here's one that I'm not 100% certain on. It triggers off of wounds inflicted in a challenge. You can now have wounds overspill onto other models in the unit, do those count since they were inflicted as part of a challenge?

Example: Archon with agoniser in combat with a tactical squad, challenge with sergeant. I score 4 hits, and 3 wounds, killing the sergeant and two other dudes. Do I get +1S, or +3?

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PostSubject: Re: Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade   Soul Trap - built for the Agoniser, not the Husk Blade I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 16:29

Are the other dudes characters?

If no - then clearly no.
If yes - then I suspect you would have an argument.

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