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adreal
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 02:15

Okay, so I was looking at my dark eldar today if thier display shelves, and I have an empty spot, one that could be filled by some harliequins (a unit I don't have models for yet) and a venom for the to ride in (yes I know, dedicated for another unit and they steal it first turn). So I was thinking would a unit of 5 harlies (death jester, 2 fusion pistols) in a venom (two splinter cannons, night shields) be a good unit??

Cost would be 195pts for a fast vechile that puts out 12 poison shots as 36", has a 5++ and -6"to range, and the unit inside puts out 3 S6 pinning shots at 24", 2 melta pistol shots if close enough and can 'go' in close combat (as much as eldar can possilbe go in close combat, but they can be a nice support unit)

Seems like an out of the box idea that has some merit, but it's also alot of points
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 06:15

*moving to more appropriate'Tactics' thread*
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 16:46

Every time I get the Harlie's into a transport they immediately get shot down (twice now that I have used them). Of course it may be the way I am using them as wwp escorts but I would suppose they would be on top of anyone's priority list.

I am also a little wary of them not surviving a crash too well. I like the idea though but even the simple mechanic of a turn where they board an empty venom could be the turn they always get shot at.

I like them either as wwp escorts or coming out of a portal - not sure if they have a place in a "rush" style list.

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bork
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 17:43

im not sold on them, they dont seem to specialise in either shooting or combat but fall between the two not doing either that well. they have the potential to be awesome but for their price tag id rather be taking trueborn or more incubi or something.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 18:02

I sort of agree with Kwi - I think by placing Harlies in a vehicle you're not taking advantage of a lot of the rules that make Harlies good. You're paying to laugh at cover and thumb your nose at range shooting - and then you're going to crawl into a transport?

If I could get them their own transport that they could start the game in and then disembark them Turn 1 I might consider it valuable. As stands I say footslog or WWP them, personally.

I'll disagree with bork and say that Harlies are actually pretty good - but they play different than most conventional DE armies, so you need to plan what you're doing with them differently.
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Fyrepwetty
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 30 2011, 03:33

@Thor I get the process of how to get them to the fight via footslog or wwp... what do you think they do best when they get there?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 30 2011, 04:45

I think they work as sort of a more killing/less tarpitting Wyche squad. I'd want to assault things with power weapons that were toughness 4.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 30 2011, 06:14

I also play Eldar and have never been tempted to use my Harlies. I play very aggressively and still haven't ever found a list to squeeze them in. Hijacking a transport from another unit wastes a turn that I could use rushing or maneuvering, and foot-slogging across the board doesn't do it for me. Even in my WWP lists that I love to use I have a hard time using them over Wyches (scoring unit) or Wracks. I love the models and fluff, but there are DE units that do the job just as effectively and don't need to spend a turn "Venom-jacking" a ride.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 30 2011, 07:45

I have used them once footslogging with a Shadowseer and a Heamy (kitted out for CC) attached with a 2nd WWP (the 1st and most important WWP was in a Raider on a Heamy and 4 grots). Quite cool, because you have a solid backup plan and a unit that can suppress the enemy with firepower while slowly getting into CC. They make the opponent forget the scoring units on the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31 2011, 15:11

I'm thinking about a "Harlequin Screen" foot list where Harlequins with Shadowseers run in front of loads of Wyches. It is near impossible to target the screening unit and everyone behind them has a cover save, not to mention anything else they get. I think I could do something like:

Succubus
7 Harlequins (7 Kisses, Shadowseer)
7 Harlequins (7 Kisses, Shadowseer)
7 Harlequins (7 Kisses, Shadowseer)
15 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades)
15 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades)
10 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades)
10 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades)
10 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade , Haywire Grenades)
10 Wyches (Hekatrix w/ Venom Blade , Haywire Grenades)
5 Beastmasters (7 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Khymera)
5 Beastmasters (7 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Khymera)

You use the Beasts and Harlequins to screen your 70 Wyches. Obviously not an all around list, anyone not bringing much in the way of AI is going to get hosed. Complete squads put out either 10+ Haywire attacks or 28+ Rending attacks. Beastmasters go on sides of formation to attack units attempting to get around the flank and hit the Wyches not getting cover from Harlequins.
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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 03 2011, 19:57

Bizzarely the Harlequins weren't given a 4++ at the very least in the DE codex, and were left the same, so the only use for them now is assaulting Grey Knights with Halberds, and even then Wyches do that pretty well anyway as they still strike the knights simultaneously and have a better Invulnerable save than the Harlequins (wtf indeed).

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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 04 2011, 06:31

Harlequins, IMO, are an above-average addition for any DE army that isn't aiming to simply spam Trueborn for EL slots. (And I would choose them over Bloodbrides simply because of their capabilities, Incubi are about on par with them after they get their 2nd Pain Token but Incubi cry if a Walker sneaks past your ranged Anti Tank and Clowns are one of a DE player's few options to tear down Walkers in CC.) I am using the following unit:

6 Harlequins: 2 Harlequin Kisses, Death Jester, Shadowseer, 1 Fusion Pistol, Troupe Master - PW

This unit is a versatile threat to the enemy mostly not only because it can handle many threats it comes across, but mostly because 1 - They ignore difficult terrain. (This gives the unit true mobility when on foot, really people don't appreciate how truly scary this is for a opponent knowing they can't effectively hide anywhere with the Clowns ignoring this key game rule.) and 2 - Hit and Run slingshotting them around the battlefield. (Hence why I have forgone most of the unit's combat strength in massing Kisses but still having a good few attacks that can ignore armour and potentially do a lot of damage (Str 4 helps quite a bit believe it or not)

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 04 2011, 17:37

Thats about190pts for 6 guys with T3, I know they are good(and wanna use them in WWP list) but to fat in pts imo...I would drop death jester....since they are primary CC unit, we can save points on him/her, and/or drop one harlequin this makes them 160 full of death Twisted Evil

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 04 2011, 23:18

My thoughts on Harlies, now that I've played and seen them a little more:

Cpt. Obvious wrote:
Harlequins:
- compete with Blasterborn and Incubi for Elite slot.
- are a footslogging assault unit, and ignore difficult terrain.
- their role can be perceived to be a combination of:
a. mass S3/Rending attacks (Wyches/Beastmasters).
b. Hit & Run shenanigans (Hellions).

Onwards!
Quote :
Available upgrades per squad of 5:
- Harlequin’s Kiss x5: Rending attacks
- Fusion pistol x2: extremely short-ranged AT
- Death Jester: medium-ranged AI/light AT
- Shadowseer: ranged targeting limitation, plasma grenades for entire squad
- Troupe Master: squad sergeant with free weapon upgrade (in effect 16pts)
Let me just start out by saying I'm not a fan of any of the ranged upgrades. Death Jesters are a pretty cool guy and... but sacrificing the entire unit's Fleet movement just so 1 guy can do his thing seems like a bad trade, especially when it's basically firing an expensive Shredder.

As for Fusion pistols, I'm -not- delving into WWP tactics in this post since I have very little experience with WWP lists. Bottom line is: they're costly and their range is horrendous. And again, Fleet.

Already expensive bodies, the Harlequin's Kiss upgrade skyrockets the squad's cost to Incubi levels. Both combat units, the Clowns' stats seem to pale next to the impressive Incubi but I suppose Rending has its uses when S4 simply doesn't cut it. Basically a necessity, though. In light of Smurfy's post, I have no idea what the 'right' amount of Kisses would be... I usually just hope for the best and kit them all out.

The Shadowseer upgrade is a great one, though (again) costing an arm and a leg, and as such I'd reserve it for larger squads only. Not taking the upgrade does limit the unit's options somewhat, but seeing as they're footsloggers they might be a bit late for the party anyway and as such wouldn't much need grenades.

The Troupe Master seems basic, but Ld10 tends to come in handy when you're under heavy fire. Plus, it's the only upgrade besides the Harlequin's Kiss that directly serves the squad's purpose. I think he's pretty neat.

Here's some rough comparisons with Hellions and Beastmasters:

Quote :
5 Harlequins
Troupe Master (Harlequin’s Kiss)
4x Harlequin’s Kiss
TOTAL 126

5 Hellions
Helliarch with Agoniser
TOTAL 115
What I reckon most people would use for harassment. Actually, the Hellions look decent right now, assuming the target isn't particularly well-armored; Skyboards leave the Clowns lagging and those underslung splinter pods are quite powerful. Yes, 21 Rending attacks are hard to argue with at this price, but I don't think this is a clear-cut win for either unit. Which is bad for the Clowns, considering how popular Hellions are - and the competition in the Fast Attack section is a lot less stiff.

Quote :
9 Harlequins
Troupe Master (Harlequin’s Kiss)
Shadowseer
8x Harlequin’s Kiss
TOTAL 244

3 Beastmasters
4x Razorwing Flock
5x Khymaera
naked Archon with PGL
TOTAL 241
Aim: craploads of Rending attacks. 37 on the charge, whereas this big Beast unit has to 'make do' with 24 Rending + 30ish regulars. Plus, the Beast unit has to be PGL-sitted to make a fairish comparison with the now well-justified Shadowseer, equalising their respective movement speeds. This would be fantastic for the Clowns if the Beast unit didn't have 3 different wound groups and a much greater volume of same, resulting in it not melting at the first sign of small-arms fire. Seriously, that 5++ just feels like a slap in the face sometimes.


tl;dr: I'm going to try Hellions again. Sorry, Harlies.

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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 03:03

Death Jesters haterade:

1 - Fleeting Harlequins around a lot makes them easy targets, haven't you guys ever seen Harlequins used in an Eldar army? Either they're in a fail Falcon/Wave Serpent (Where like any assaulty choice in such a Transport, they are simply cockblocked into oblivion, oh me oh my this is why Foot Councils suck folks) or they're counter-chargers between the lines (DING! Correct way to use them!)

2 - Strength 6 is bad? Derp? You face off vs. another DE army you negate their FNP and give all their vehicles trouble...You face off a Marine army the average transport is AV 11, and wound on them on 2's...Ok still good...IG Chimera chassis side AV 10? Oh goody again...

Main point? Str 6 gives you the all-rounder medium that the absolutes like Poison or Darklight (What else do YOU have in your DE army?) don't provide.

3 - 24" range with a Shadowseer = Invisible cannon really if you plan your targets accordingly. Fleet when you need to rush to the aid somewhere, anything that wants to assault you they can hop onto pretty easily with the Flip Belts rule alone.

Some of you saw my DE list of subpar-ness-trial-n-error and the combo that works for my assault sledgehammers are Harlies and Beasts. Hellions aren't cutting it just yet but I might not know how to work them yet. Harlies can't take a hit back, granted, but they can dish it out with very little investment to make them truly all-rounder choices. I am not satisfied on paper with Incubi due to being easily focussed down. Harlies are harder due to the Veil of Tears and Hit and Run rules.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 04:15

1. If that is legit, than is what they're working as counter chargers for not running? Because if they're operating as counterchargers to foot units...well, most decent DE foot units are either a static gunline (in which case you might want the Deathjester, but probably don't need the extra shots) or it's something like Beasts, Talos, or maybe Hellions - in which case the Harlies would need to be hoofing it to keep pace, yeah?

2. Str 6 is not bad. 10 points for -1 attacks in h2h (what the unit is supposed to be good at) for 3 BS 4 Str 6 AP- shots isn't really all that good though, is it? If I want some sort of shooting that's better than poison but less than lance I'd go with a Dissie, as it's way better versus heavy armor infantry, which is the one area where neither lances nor poison excels. Everything else they do better than the Deathjester - and frankly I think a Dissie does as good or better than him versus pretty much everything as well, and is going to be on a vehicle for vastly superior threat bubble as well.

3. I'll agree this is a unique aspect of the setup. But, still, I'd want my Harlies in assault.

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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 05:00

Problem with Dissies, something I'm looking to solve myself, is fitting them in over lances (If a Trueborn unit could take 2 I'd definitely consider Dissie teams) As it stands, we gotta sacrifice a DL for them, so maybe start switching Raiders with Prows - Their DLs for Dissies? Y/N?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 05:01

On the deathjester - most people seem to have missed the one thing that got changed between the CWE and the DE codex.... the DJ keeps the option for a kiss...

So while you may not get the 2CCW bonus you can still make him aviable assault model where the CWE leaves him as an either or model

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 05:06

@Smurfy wrote:
Problem with Dissies, something I'm looking to solve myself, is fitting them in over lances (If a Trueborn unit could take 2 I'd definitely consider Dissie teams) As it stands, we gotta sacrifice a DL for them, so maybe start switching Raiders with Prows - Their DLs for Dissies? Y/N?
I think Dissies work fine as long as you're not spamming Venoms.

Currently I use them in my DS army on Razorwings, and it works out very nicely indeed.

I would tend to submit if you're taking Harlies for shooting, then you probably have the points to take Bloodbrides/Wracks in a Venom or Dissie Raider for shooting+assault in the same way the Harlies are providing it.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 16:28

@Smurfy wrote:

2 - Strength 6 is bad? Derp? You face off vs. another DE army you negate their FNP and give all their vehicles trouble...You face off a Marine army the average transport is AV 11, and wound on them on 2's...Ok still good...IG Chimera chassis side AV 10? Oh goody again...

Main point? Str 6 gives you the all-rounder medium that the absolutes like Poison or Darklight (What else do YOU have in your DE army?) don't provide.
My main gripe with the Jester is that it's just 1 guy. Were it max 2 or 3 per unit, it'd be more attractive.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 16:33

@Raneth
Emmm your bestmaster squad is fail, they cant assault 12" with archon so there is no point in having him in.

Quote :
2 - Strength 6 is bad? Derp? You face off vs. another DE army you negate their FNP and give all their vehicles trouble...You face off a Marine army the average transport is AV 11, and wound on them on 2's...Ok still good...IG Chimera chassis side AV 10? Oh goody again...

Main point? Str 6 gives you the all-rounder medium that the absolutes like Poison or Darklight (What else do YOU have in your DE army?) don't provide.

It is good, no argue with that but all around units/universal are kinda crap imo....clowns are for CC not for shooting.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 16:45

@GrenAcid wrote:
@Raneth
Emmm your bestmaster squad is fail, they cant assault 12" with archon so there is no point in having him in.

Maybe you misunderstood? Aw heck I'll just quote myself.

I wrote:
Plus, the Beast unit has to be PGL-sitted to make a fairish comparison with the now well-justified Shadowseer (eg, the squad would need an Archon for grenades), equalising their respective movement speeds (as in: 6" Move, d6" Fleet, 6" Assault. And no this isn't fail).

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05 2011, 16:46

In all honesty... Harlequins are just too easily killed. The reason they're as expensive as they are is that they used to be able to sweeping advance into combat, but now that in 5th edition you can't do that, they're almost as easy to kill as Guardians. The only way for them to survive is to get them into cover and cast fortune on them, and they don't do as much damage as they should without doom. Wait a minute... what is it Dark Eldar don't have? Oh right, yeah, psychic powers!

There was no reason to keep Harlequins at the same cost and stats, when Wyches have a 4++, Harlequins should have at least that. cheapen them by a tiny bit and then you have yourself a decent unit. They were written for 4th edition, and keeping them the same in 5th edition is stupidity. Here's hoping they change them in the next Eldar codex, or alternatively have the 6th edition rules so that they're worth it!

Incubi and Wyches just do it better and survive better. They also get Feel no Pain. It's a real shame because Harlequins are probably my most loved faction.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 16:01

Yea, has anyone tried giving them a transport off the bat? I have on occasion used some 3-man wrack squads for Pain Token transfer. I could always buy 2 venoms for them and give the harlies something to ride in. It would be simply awesome if the shadowseer effected their vehicle as well, but sadly its only on foot. I could also give them a raider and maybe an archon to soak up some shooting?

Also, wouldn't you always want to field a troupe master simply for the power weapon. I mean I know its rediculously expensive, but wouldn't 5/6 power weapon attacks at St4 be worth it? I've played Eldar for years, harlequins kisses are necessary, but you'll always have those games where you don't roll a lot of 6s, in which case they simply blow. Oh well.

And about the deathjester vs. armor. ROFL.

Against armor 10 (assuming you even make it within 24"):

3 shots, 2 hit, 0.66 pen, 0.44 destroy. I wouldn't consider the cannon good at destroying ANY vehicles, possibly disabling, yes, but your dark lances have a much better chance at doing both and don't require a ridiculous amount of points to do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar and Harliquins   Dark Eldar and Harliquins I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06 2011, 17:54

@GreySeerZ wrote:
Yea, has anyone tried giving them a transport off the bat?

The thing is, you could just do that with Wyches or Incubi with less hassle.

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