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Erebus
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 12:42

Quote :
Close combat attacks clearly cant snap shoot and would never have to. Think its still clutching at straws. If it is anything, you can argue a technicality at most. But most players should remember common sense > technicalities

None of these 3 is a close combat attack.

So the question really is: "Do spacial attacks exist that are not shooting or melee attacks?"
The answer is YES.
HoW, Stomp, Vector Strike and Bombing Run.
Are they in any way effectd by "snap shot"? NO because they are no shooting attacks.
Simple.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 12:56

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
None of vector strike, how or stomp are weapons though, so they are all dealt with in a different way to something that is a weapon.

Which is a very subjective statement. All 3 have stats, all 3 have effects that use weapon like rules but here ist is suddenly something completely different because of reasons.

Really? It's anything but subjective. weapons in 40k have a profile, none of those 3 things have that.

Vector Strike - represents a model raking another with claws/blades etc as it flies over it (hence the ignores cover part) - not a weapon.

HoW - represents a collision between the attacking model and the target model as one charges into the other (and that's why bladevanes are rending, because they're more dangerous than a shoulder barge)

Stomp - represents, oh c'mon we all know what stomp represents, it sure as hell isn't a weapon.

Bombing run - represents, let me see, a special way of using a weapon!

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 13:17

Quote :
Bombing run - represents, let me see, a special way of using a weapon!
RIGHT!
It is a special way of using a weapon. And that special way is no shooting attack and thus not effected by snapshots.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 13:39

They are bombing us!
Return fire!
Wait, are they shooting us though? I'm not sure if we can shoot back.

Seriously. Its clearly an attack. It involves dropping a projectile. It uses a blast marker. This is like a climate change debate. Here is the 99% of evidence that says yes. Here is the 1% that says no. And your taking that 1%.

If you are zooming about avoiding all incoming fire to the point where you cant accurately fire your weapons, how are you going to drop a bomb with precision?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 13:48

Quote :
Seriously. Its clearly an attack. It involves dropping a projectile. It uses a blast marker. This is like a climate change debate. Here is the 99% of evidence that says yes. Here is the 1% that says no. And your taking that 1%.

Post edited - no swearing! - Count Adhemar

It is an attack. YES. It is no shooting attack and no melee attack either. And as only shooting attacks are effected by the snapshot rule, it does not effet the bombing run.
You brought NO evidence here. You are only arguing out of rules. You cant even cite a rule to prove me wrong. So please stop taling about 2evidence" you brought ZERO thus far.


Quote :
If you are zooming about avoiding all incoming fire to the point where you cant accurately fire your weapons, how are you going to drop a bomb with precision?

With laser guidance obviously... like... erm... real life bombing runs?
But if you cant argue with rules involved and resort to funny fluff examples... If you are zooming about avoiding all incoming fire to the point where you cant accurately fire your weapons, how are you going to precisely strike a guy on the ground with your claws?
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:05

You guys are making my brain hurt. The thread derailed a page ago or so. This was am interesting discussion and helpful, but it seems to have ceased showing me information.

In my opinion, regardless of wording, if I tried to bomb after jinking I'm pretty sure my opponents would thump me upside the head for cheating.


Last edited by Myrvn on Fri Nov 07 2014, 14:11; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:07

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Bombing run - represents, let me see, a special way of using a weapon!
RIGHT!
It is a special way of using a weapon. And that special way is no shooting attack and thus not effected by snapshots.

So you agree that it is a weapon? Okay then, how do you get around the following, taken from the Snap Shots section of the Shooting rules?

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:

So you agree that it is a weapon? Okay then, how do you get around the following, taken from the Snap Shots section of the Shooting rules?

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Simple. It is NO shooting attack and thus not effected by shooting rules.
Even there. It has no Template or Ordnance type and does not use the blast special rule (2d6 scatter, bs matters)
Just becuase a certain template is used, it does not make an attack a shooting attack (stomp does use the blast template for example, also does Yriels eye of Wrath)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:32

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

So you agree that it is a weapon? Okay then, how do you get around the following, taken from the Snap Shots section of the Shooting rules?

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Simple. It is NO shooting attack and thus not effected by shooting rules.
Even there. It has no Template or Ordnance type and does not use the blast special rule (2d6 scatter, bs matters)
Just becuase a certain template is used, it does not make an attack a shooting attack (stomp does use the blast template for example, also does Yriels eye of Wrath)

So because you've arbitrarily decided that it's not a shooting attack, despite it having a shooting weapon profile, you feel you can ignore any rules contained within the shooting section of the rulebook?

You also appear to be missing the facts that the Void Mine is specifically listed in the DE codex as a ranged weapon and also that it does indeed have the (Large) Blast rule.

So, it's a ranged weapon with a weapon profile and the blast rule. Any other rules you want that will convince you that you cannot snap fire with it?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:40

Quote :
So because you've arbitrarily decided that it's not a shooting attack, despite it having a shooting weapon profile, you feel you can ignore any rules contained within the shooting section of the rulebook?

No, because the BRB clearly says its a special kind of attack: bombing run. Its not me who as decided that it is no shooting attack, its the BRB which states that it is a bombing run.

Quote :
You also appear to be missing the facts that the Void Mine is specifically listed in the DE codex as a ranged weapon and also that it does indeed have the (Large) Blast rule.

Yes, the bomb can be a ranged weapon. Not arguing that. But the attack the BOMBER makes is a bombing run. The weapon profile is necessary as there are different bombs from different flyers. Similar "special attacks" like HoW (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack), Vector Strike (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack) and Stomp (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack) for example do not need different profiles as they are just dependent on the model executing it. If a model lacks one of the stats (like the Heldrake for example) a new special rule is provided.
So the bomber makes a bombing run which uses a bombs profile.
It does not make a shooting attack using the bombs profile (that would be completely different rules)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:49

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
So because you've arbitrarily decided that it's not a shooting attack, despite it having a shooting weapon profile, you feel you can ignore any rules contained within the shooting section of the rulebook?

No, because the BRB clearly says its a special kind of attack: bombing run. Its not me who as decided that it is no shooting attack, its the BRB which states that it is a bombing run.

Quote :
You also appear to be missing the facts that the Void Mine is specifically listed in the DE codex as a ranged weapon and also that it does indeed have the (Large) Blast rule.

Yes, the bomb can be a ranged weapon. Not arguing that. But the attack the BOMBER makes is a bombing run. The weapon profile is necessary as there are different bombs from different flyers. Similar "special attacks" like HoW (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack), Vector Strike (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack) and Stomp (which is not a shooting nor a melee attack) for example do not need different profiles as they are just dependent on the model executing it. If a model lacks one of the stats (like the Heldrake for example) a new special rule is provided.
So the bomber makes a bombing run which uses a bombs profile.
It does not make a shooting attack using the bombs profile (that would be completely different rules)

Sorry but you have made up absolutely everything that you've written there. None of it, none, is supported by the rules.

I don't really see any point in continuing the debate.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:56

WHAT?

If cited the relevant rules through the entire thread. All you guys do is "meh dont think so, I have no evdidence to prove otherwise so im just beeing dismissive"

STOMP
Super-heavy Walkers engaged in combat may make a special type of attack called a Stomp attack.

Is this a melee attack, a shooting attack (it uses the blast marker!) or a special type of attack?
Is it effected by Snapshots (against an invisible unit for example)?

BOMB
Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

Notice the wording?
So where is the difference?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 14:59

Basically you've agreed that it's a weapon but claim that it doesn't follow the rules for weapons. You've agreed that it's a blast but doesn't follow the rules for blasts. And all this is based on a single line that says it's a special kind of attack which in no way alters the fact that the attack is made with a shooting weapon.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 15:05

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Basically you've agreed that it's a weapon but claim that it doesn't follow the rules for weapons. You've agreed that it's a blast but doesn't follow the rules for blasts. And all this is based on a single line that says it's a special kind of attack which in no way alters the fact that the attack is made with a shooting weapon.

Again (and for the last time, this is getting ridiculous).
Yes it has a weapon profile.
Yes it follows the rules for weapons (note: not all weapons follow the same rules)
Yes it uses the Blast marker. No it does not follow the rules for Blast as it does not scatter 2d6 and you may not detract your BS from the scatter result - which is the blast rule.

Yes it is based on that single line. If that single line is not important, then stomp is also a shooting attack as it uses the same wording and makes use of the blast marker (as does the eye of wrath).

Also this:
Quote :

Certain older publications may describe a bomb using the ‘Assault’ or ‘Heavy’ weapon type alongside a Bomb special rule. Where this is the case, follow the rules for the Bomb type described here instead.

It would not matter if a bomb is heavy or assault as only vehicles and FMC can make use of bombs. The only thing why it would matter is that "assault" and "heavy" would indeed make it a shooting attack.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 15:10

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Again (and for the last time, this is getting ridiculous).

Somehow I doubt it will be for the last time

Quote :
Yes it has a weapon profile.

Which includes the Type: Large Blast.

Quote :
Yes it follows the rules for weapons (note: not all weapons follow the same rules)

Apparently not. I quoted the rule earlier which specifically says that Blasts may not snap fire.

Quote :
Yes it uses the Blast marker. No it does not follow the rules for Blast as it does not scatter 2d6 and you may not detract your BS from the scatter result - which is the blast rule.

Those exceptions to the Blast rules being specifically noted within the rules for bombs and bombing runs. Care to quote the exception to the rule about not being able to snap fire?

Quote :
Yes it is based on that single line. If that single line is not important, then stomp is also a shooting attack as it uses the same wording and makes use of the blast marker.

Except it doesn't have a weapon profile. Nor does HoW or Vector Strike. Hence the difference.

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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 15:17

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:


All you guys do is "meh dont think so, I have no evdidence to prove otherwise so im just beeing dismissive?

Kettle.Pot.Black.

This whole discussion is going around in circles. Many of the earlier posts have given sound, reasonable and logical solutions to this issue. If that's not how you see it, fine. Play it your way, see how the people you play with view it, see if its ever clarified at tournaments etc. But for now, it is wearing down my soul.

The first few pages of this discussion are actually very interesting if anyone is still interested.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 15:48

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Except it doesn't have a weapon profile. Nor does HoW or Vector Strike. Hence the difference.
I'd say the bigger difference is that the listed "special attacks" are USRs. Bombing run isn't, but rather the method by which bombs are used. To me, that's really where the comparison falls apart.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 15:48

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
They do not mention Grenades as specifically shooting attacks.

Wrong.

Grenades BRB:

Some grenades can be used to make shooting attacks
Yes, some can, but in the individual entries they do not call them shooting attacks - so I presume they are some other type of attack because what is said earlier in a section does not apply to Bombs, so it shouldn't apply to Grenades.

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
None of the above have ANY rule that states that they do a special kind of attack, so they follow the basic rule instead of a special rule (which they do not have).
They do have special rules though, like, Primary allows you to assault afterwards. That's special and different from regular shooting attacks, so it is a special rule so clearly it doesn't get affected by snapfire.

I mean, if we want to accept that they have weapon profiles and are thus weapons (and are different from HoW, or Stomp, or Vector Strike - which are not weapons) and are therefore affected by the weapon rules then I suppose that makes sense.

But then Bombs should be affected by those rules also *except* where their special rules specifically note something different happens. Like...say, shooting in the Movement phase or something.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 23:16

@Grub wrote:
...... But for now, it is wearing down my soul.


Agreed. Rolling Eyes



Perhaps this thread can be locked? It no longer seems to be serving any real purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 05:33

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but the bomb is listed as a Ranged Weapon in the summary sheet at the back if the codex.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 16:32

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Bombing run - represents, let me see, a special way of using a weapon!
RIGHT!
It is a special way of using a weapon. And that special way is no shooting attack and thus not effected by snapshots.

So you agree that it is a weapon? Okay then, how do you get around the following, taken from the Snap Shots section of the Shooting rules?

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

You didnt quote the rule entirely, there is (page 158) before the period. It cites what blast weapons are effected. Also notice it says "SOME" weapons, not all. Bombing Runs does not follow the rules for blast on pg 158.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 17:03

@Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Bombing Runs does not follow the rules for blast on pg 158.
Correction - it does not follow *all* the rules for Blast.
It does still follow others of them.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 19:55

@Thor665 wrote:
@Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Bombing Runs does not follow the rules for blast on pg 158.
Correction - it does not follow *all* the rules for Blast.
It does still follow others of them.

Aside from which template is used, which rule does it follow?

It doesn't follow target method, it doesn't follow scatter... It doesn't even require the model to have a Ballistic Skill value. (aka if you were to reduce it to BS 0 it could still make a bombing run)
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 20:07

@Tittliewinks22 wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
@Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Bombing Runs does not follow the rules for blast on pg 158.
Correction - it does not follow *all* the rules for Blast.
It does still follow others of them.

Aside from which template is used, which rule does it follow?

It doesn't follow target method, it doesn't follow scatter... It doesn't even require the model to have a Ballistic Skill value. (aka if you were to reduce it to BS 0 it could still make a bombing run)
So, aside from the marker, the rules for placing it, and how that dictates what it wounds you'd like to know what rules it follows?

You seem to have already listed most of them right there.

The Void Mine is listed as a Blast Type weapon - whether or not it can modify some of the rules for a Blast weapon does not mean it is excluded from the rules it does not modify.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Nov 08 2014, 21:31

@Tittliewinks22 wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Bombing run - represents, let me see, a special way of using a weapon!
RIGHT!
It is a special way of using a weapon. And that special way is no shooting attack and thus not effected by snapshots.

So you agree that it is a weapon? Okay then, how do you get around the following, taken from the Snap Shots section of the Shooting rules?

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

You didnt quote the rule entirely, there is (page 158) before the period. It cites what blast weapons are effected.  Also notice it says "SOME" weapons, not all.  Bombing Runs does not follow the rules for blast on pg 158.

I quoted the relevant parts and it makes no mention of which blast weapons are effected. It also says some weapon types, not some weapons.

The full rule is:

Quote :
Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Without any omissions or inferences we are clearly instructed that weapons with the blast type cannot be fired as snap shots. Void Mine is blast type. End of.

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