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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 14:41

I still see it as an unintended misunderstanding on GWs behalf. If you think about it, the bomber will either have to weather the incoming fire to accurately drop it or evade and come back again.

In most cases you are probably going to use the bomb in the turn you arrive anyway right? If it was me looking at a bomber and I shot everything I could at it and it jinks and then drops its payload with accuracy. I would be like hang on, something's not right. Considering it as a shooting attack for the purposes of snapfire makes perfect sense to me, no matter the interpretation of a poorly written rule! That I payed for. Well done me for paying for mediocrity. :/

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 14:42

The problem is, bombing run rules do not tell me NOT to subtract my BS and the large blast special rule is still there. It has always been like that since 6th edition and never got FAQed. Every other blast/large blast weapon in the game that should not have its scatter distance reduced due to BS explicily says so. Bombing rules do not. They only state the scatter is d6. In General Principles in Scatter section it also says that different weapons can have different scatter ranges.

Bomb is a weapon type. Like heavy or assault. Neither heavy nor assault forbids you from following the blast rules.

All in all, if bombing rules are so uber and override everything else, I don't understand why you call dropping the bomb a shooting attack while the rules explicitely say it's a special attack called bombing run. Not a shooting attack. Not a close combat attack. A special attack called bombing run. We used to have special attacks, like bladevane attack. Not shooting, not close combat.

Klaivex Charondyr, you've ninja'd me, but asking this question in this particular thread was intentional on my behalf.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 15:07

I think you are misunderstanding me! Im not going to argue whether its a shooting attack, melee or whatever. Im not sure that it matters much when you look at the rest of it. At the end of the day, its an attack that is made in the movement phase.

So why is it made in the movement phase?
Because as its "range" is whatever you fly over, its easier to keep track of where you are going then where you have been. It avoids arguments and feels more like a bomber. Simple.

Its not a shooting attack then?
Technically it is a "special attack" which follow its own very loosely defined rules. But it is one which is a) not guaranteed to hit and b) looks a lot like a large blast

So as "blast weapons can not fire snapshots" and whatever this attack is, not that it matters, is a blast, then if the vehicle has to jink and is forced to make all its attacks as snapshots, then it must make all of its attacks as snapshots. And as this "bomb" is neither an assault move or a run it is an attack so should be subjected to standard attack limitations.

As far as subtracting the BS from the scatter, it doesn't say, true. I cant say one way or another. But it says that it scatters D6. So if you do take away BS then its always going to hit really. And that seems a bit off for me? Ask your local GW? They should be able to tell you definitively!

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 15:26

Quote :
Its not a shooting attack then?
Technically it is a "special attack" which follow its own very loosely defined rules. But it is one which is a) not guaranteed to hit and b) looks a lot like a large blast

So as "blast weapons can not fire snapshots" and whatever this attack is, not that it matters, is a blast, then if the vehicle has to jink and is forced to make all its attacks as snapshots, then it must make all of its attacks as snapshots. And as this "bomb" is neither an assault move or a run it is an attack so should be subjected to standard attack limitations.

Vector Strike?
"special attack" following its own rules.
Tecnically, when jink prevents the bomb because of the blast it also prevents the Vector strike because of "no to hit roll"
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 15:34

Slightly off topic but something I'd missed until recently - vector strike counts as shooting a weapon for the purposes of the total number of weapons fired, so a vector striking dakka flyrant can only shoot one set of guns in the following phase.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 15:38

@Klaivex: Technically. Technicalities ruin games. Technically a splinter rack makes all splinter weapons twin linked. Its still a common sense issue. I stand by my thought process. Vector strike you say has no to hit roll, so it auto hits. Blasts don't auto hit. So can miss. So are essentially the same as a shooting attack yada yada yada


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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 15:40

The Bomb has a weapon profile.
Therefore it is a 'weapon'.
There are shooting weapon and melee weapon types.
Bomb is listed as a shooting weapon type.
All shooting weapons make shooting attacks.
Shooting attacks are affected by jink.

To get me to think otherwise all you have to do is chop out one of the links in the above chain. But I can't see any holes there myself. Most people seem to be hung up on the idea that Bomb is a type - which is true, but it is a type of weapon, and per the weapon rules you are either a shooting weapon or a melee weapon. You might have special attack options, but it does not change what you are or how you work within the rules.

Also, as noted, Vector Strike is not applicable because it is not a weapon - we know this because it lacks a weapon profile. Bombs have a weapon profile.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 16:35

Thor, your logic here is flawless of course... However, for me ithe bomb rules inform us that it's an exception to general rules.

Let's substract weapon for treat, melee weapon for fruit and shooting weapon for candy. The rules say bombs should be classified as candy. Elsewhere they say you can eat candy only after dinner. And specific bomb rules say you can eat them before dinner.

I feel we are both right and it only leads to a sad conclusion. As shooting weapons can be only used for shooting attacks and bombs are used for special attacks called bombing runs, they cannot be used at all.

What's your take on reducing scatter by BS? I don't feel it's off to bombs being that accurate, as we're paying through the nose for a single use weapon, while vector strikes hit automatically and can be utilized every turn.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 16:39

as for scatter reducing using BS - i think it depends (not having my rulebook to hand) on whether the bombing run section says you scatter, but only roll 1D6. If it calls it scatter then look at scatter rule and that (I think) says you reduce by BS. If it doesn't call it scatter then I'd struggle to justify reducing by BS.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 16:43

The_Burning_Eye: Here's the wording:

„Place the blast marker for the Bomb so that the central hole on the marker is over the target model, and roll a scatter dice. If a Hit! is rolled, the attack is on target and the marker is not moved. If an arrow is rolled, move the marker D6" in that direction. Once the final position has been determined, resolve the effects as described in the Bomb’s profile. Casualties caused by Bombs are removed as per Barrage weapons.”

Scatter doesn't say anything about reducing the scatter range by BS. It's only there in the blast special rule entry.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 16:50

so yeah it doesn't say scatter the marker D6", but move the marker D6" - I don't see that wording gives any scope to reduce the scatter by the firer's BS.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 16:56

Quote :
The Bomb has a weapon profile.
Therefore it is a 'weapon'.
There are shooting weapon and melee weapon types.
Bomb is listed as a shooting weapon type.
All shooting weapons make shooting attacks.
Shooting attacks are affected by jink.


To get me to think otherwise all you have to do is chop out one of the links in the above chain.

Chop, Chop

I dont see the rule where Bombs do shooting attacks. The BRB clearly states they have their own special attack: Bombing Run.

Quote :
Vector strike you say has no to hit roll, so it auto hits.

The snap shot rule prevents you from doing auto hits.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 17:15

Finn wrote:
Let's substract weapon for treat, melee weapon for fruit and shooting weapon for candy. The rules say bombs should be classified as candy. Elsewhere they say you can eat candy only after dinner. And specific bomb rules say you can eat them before dinner.
I find your method of changing the terms to make this less understandable - not more understandable.

Here is a counter thought;

I presume you agree with me that a Bomb is a "weapon"
I presume you agree with me that it has the "blast" type.
Per the rules for snap shot - weapons with the 'blast' type cannot be fired as snap shots.
Does that not include the Bombing Run which has the 'blast' type and is a weapon whether or not it is a magical special attack of some sort undefined by the rules?

Finn wrote:
I feel we are both right and it only leads to a sad conclusion. As shooting weapons can be only used for shooting attacks and bombs are used for special attacks called bombing runs, they cannot be used at all.
That only works if we accept the special attack bombing run as not a sub-set of a shooting attacks.
I do not make this move with you.
Template and blast weapons are also special attacks with special rules - they are, however, also shooting attacks.

Finn wrote:
What's your take on reducing scatter by BS? I don't feel it's off to bombs being that accurate, as we're paying through the nose for a single use weapon, while vector strikes hit automatically and can be utilized every turn.
I see nothing in the rules to support the idea that a bombing run is affected by the firer's BS. Can you walk me through why you think it is?

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
The Bomb has a weapon profile.
Therefore it is a 'weapon'.
There are shooting weapon and melee weapon types.
Bomb is listed as a shooting weapon type.
All shooting weapons make shooting attacks.
Shooting attacks are affected by jink.


To get me to think otherwise all you have to do is chop out one of the links in the above chain.

Chop, Chop

I dont see the rule where Bombs do shooting attacks. The BRB clearly states they have their own special attack: Bombing Run.
You chopped the wrong line if this is your stated argument. All shooting weapons do shooting attacks, this is clearly in the rules - so really what you're arguing is that a Bomb is not a shooting weapon.

How do you support this claim?

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
Vector strike you say has no to hit roll, so it auto hits.

The snap shot rule prevents you from doing auto hits.
No, it does not.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 17:43

Quote :
Template and blast weapons are also special attacks with special rules - they are, however, also shooting attacks.

No they are not. They are classified as shooting attacks and not as anything else. Template is just the range indicator. The fall into the Assault or Heavy category which are shooting weapons and are uses in conjunction with shooting attacks.
The bomb is classified as bombing run and not as shooting attack.

Example Assault Weapons:
A model shooting an Assault weapon shoots the number of times indicated on its profile – whether or not the bearer has moved. A model carrying an Assault weapon can fire it in the Shooting phase and still charge into close combat in the Assault phase.

Example Bomb:
Unlike other weapons, Bombs must be used in the Movement phase of their turn, in a special kind of attack called a Bombing Run.

Its not even a special kind of shooting. Its a special kind of attack.
Quote :


You chopped the wrong line if this is your stated argument. All shooting weapons do shooting attacks, this is clearly in the rules - so really what you're arguing is that a Bomb is not a shooting weapon.

No I dont argue that the bomb is no shooting weapon. I argue that it doesnt make a shooting attack.
So a special rule "bombing run" is contradicting a standard rule "all shooting weapons do shooting attacks" why give the standard rule priority?



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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 18:13

Thor665 wrote:
The Bomb has a weapon profile.
Therefore it is a 'weapon'.
There are shooting weapon and melee weapon types.
Bomb is listed as a shooting weapon type.
All shooting weapons make shooting attacks.
Shooting attacks are affected by jink.

To get me to think otherwise all you have to do is chop out one of the links in the above chain. But I can't see any holes there myself. Most people seem to be hung up on the idea that Bomb is a type - which is true, but it is a type of weapon, and per the weapon rules you are either a shooting weapon or a melee weapon. You might have special attack options, but it does not change what you are or how you work within the rules.

Also, as noted, Vector Strike is not applicable because it is not a weapon - we know this because it lacks a weapon profile. Bombs have a weapon profile.

I totally agree with your assessment when applied to a blast type weapon and jinking, however, the one thing that is really causing all of this to come to question:

Page 33: "Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, Cannot be fired as Snap Shots (pg 158)."

The snapshot rules specifically dictate which weapon types cannot be fired via Snap Shot. The rule specifies what kind of blasts may not be fired by directing you to page 158.

Page 158: This section has an entire page to discuss the different types of blast weapons. The first paragraph states how to determine target, the 2nd paragraph dictates how to scatter the blast (2d6 subtract ballistic skill).

For the entire page, none of these rules apply to Bombing runs. You do not determine target in the same way, you do not scatter in the same way. The only similarity is the fact that you use the same template.

Page 42: Bombing Runs. This entire paragraph dictates how to choose target, and how to "scatter" the template. None of these are the same as the way as mentioned on the blast page.


It is for this reason that I believe that Bombing Runs may be fired even while snap shot. Otherwise the snap shot rule would not have referred to the Blast page when talking about which blast weapons cannot be fired while snap shot.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 18:43

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Its not even a special kind of shooting. Its a special kind of attack.
I agree it is a special kind of attack. I do not see how that matters to the question at hand.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
No I dont argue that the bomb is no shooting weapon. I argue that it doesnt make a shooting attack.
Per the rulebook all shooting weapons make shooting attacks - ergo, a special kind of attack from a shooting weapon is still a shooting attack even if it is not a conventional shooting attack.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
So a special rule "bombing run" is contradicting a standard rule "all shooting weapons do shooting attacks" why give the standard rule priority?
The special rule dictates that it happens in the movement phase.
It dictates a special method of targeting.
It does not claim it is not a shooting attack.

Overwatch happens outside of the shooting phase - it is still a shooting attack.
Interceptor happens during the movement phase - it is still a shooting attack.
Phase has nothing to do with being or not being a shooting attack.
Being special has nothing to do with being or not being a shooting attack. A special melee attack is still a melee attack regardless of how special it is.

What is the rule wherein it is claiming to not be a shooting attack that overrides the basic rule?
I believe you are basing that 'special' equates to 'not shooting'.
I see no evidence to support that conclusion - at the very least my conclusion is equally supported as yours, and mine makes sense within the confines of the rest of the rules so I tend to lean towards it being correct.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
It is for this reason that I believe that Bombing Runs may be fired even while snap shot. Otherwise the snap shot rule would not have referred to the Blast page when talking about which blast weapons cannot be fired while snap shot.
It is a yes/no question though.

Is a bomb a blast type weapon?
I agree that it has exceptions to the basic blast rules due to being a special attack.
That said, is it a blast weapon per the rules?
Can a blast weapon be used to snapfire - again, per the rules?

You need to say no to the first or yes to the second to justify your stance. I don't think either answer is supportable.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 21:53

Quote :
I believe you are basing that 'special' equates to 'not shooting'.

Yes. Same as Vector Strike and HoW which are both neither a melee attack nor a shooting attack. Add a third tho them, the bombing run. Which is neither a melee nor a shooting attack.

Quote :
Overwatch happens outside of the shooting phase - it is still a shooting attack.
Yes, because it explicitly says so:

An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack...

Quote :
Phase has nothing to do with being or not being a shooting attack.
Yes, I agree. Thats why they mention clearly what type of attack it is. Like with overwatch which is clearly mentioned as beeing a shooting attack.
While the bombing run is its own kind of attack: a bombing run.
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 22:08

Anything that uses a blast template can not fire overwatch or snapshoot. No matter what the "bombing run" is, it still uses a large blast template, so can not snapfire.

What type of attack it is makes no difference. I still see nothing to suggest legitimately otherwise. If I were to boil it down to its bare bones, the meat of the issue.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 22:35

Quote :
Anything that uses a blast template can not fire overwatch or snapshoot.

Agreed. The point here is that it is no shooting attack so it doesnt even "fire overwatch or snapshoot".
Stomping also uses a blast. This does not make it a shooting attack.

Quote :
What type of attack it is makes no difference.

It makes a HUGE difference as Vector Strike, HoW or Stomp could be used when forced to snapshot because they are no shooting attacks (and no melee attacks either)
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Nov 06 2014, 23:56

None of vector strike, how or stomp are weapons though, so they are all dealt with in a different way to something that is a weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 05:11

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Yes. Same as Vector Strike and HoW which are both neither a melee attack nor a shooting attack. Add a third tho them, the bombing run. Which is neither a melee nor a shooting attack.
If Bombing Run was a special rule as opposed to a weapon listed as a shooting weapon I would be more on board with this distinction.

Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Yes, I agree. Thats why they mention clearly what type of attack it is. Like with overwatch which is clearly mentioned as beeing a shooting attack.
While the bombing run is its own kind of attack: a bombing run.
I agree, they do not always call things clearly to be shooting attacks.

They do not mention Grenades as specifically shooting attacks. They say they are shooting weapons, just like they say Bombs are.
Am I allowed to snapshot grenades also?
Salvo weapons are not specifically called as making shooting attacks.
Am I allowed to snapshot with salvo weapons?
Primary weapons are not specifically called shooting attacks.
Am I allowed to snapshot with a Primary weapon?

I see no reason i couldn't argue any and all of those by your same logic as presented here. Not all rules are specifically spelled out everywhere. All of those weapons are prevented from snapfiring by the same rules that affect Bombs. If it doesn't affect Bombs why does it affect them?

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 07:03

Quote :
None of vector strike, how or stomp are weapons though, so they are all dealt with in a different way to something that is a weapon.

Which is a very subjective statement. All 3 have stats, all 3 have effects that use weapon like rules but here ist is suddenly something completely different because of reasons.

Quote :
They do not mention Grenades as specifically shooting attacks.

Wrong.

Grenades BRB:

Some grenades can be used to make shooting attacks

Quote :
Salvo weapons are not specifically called as making shooting attacks.
Am I allowed to snapshot with salvo weapons?
Primary weapons are not specifically called shooting attacks.
Am I allowed to snapshot with a Primary weapon?

You gave the anwser yourself:
A shooting weapon can only be used to make shooting attacks.

None of the above have ANY rule that states that they do a special kind of attack, so they follow the basic rule instead of a special rule (which they do not have).
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 07:25

Bombing run/bomb 1 is the attack type right? So lets say an assault weapon has a blast template, can it snap fire? Call it what you like, say its a small gathering of gnomes for all it matters, it uses a blast marker, so should be enveloped by snap fire restrictions on blasts. If it was a heavy weapon, you would no doubt agree, that it could not snapfire. Because it is a heavy weapon that uses a blast template. Same if it was ordinance, assault whatever. "Special Attack" is still at the end of the day an attack, if it didn't use a template, sure, snapfire away but it don't. It uses a large blast and so, no matter what type of attack it is, its controlled by the fact that it uses a large blast rather then getting hung up on the type of attack it is.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 07:43

Quote :
If it was a heavy weapon, you would no doubt agree, that it could not snapfire. Because it is a heavy weapon that uses a blast template.

No, because it is a shooting weapon that makes a shooting attack and follows the rules for shooting. And the rules for shooting prevent snapshpts from using the blast USR.

Quote :
Bombing run/bomb 1 is the attack type right?

No. The weapon type is Bomb. The attack is "bombing run" as stated in the BRB.

Quote :
if it didn't use a template, sure, snapfire away but it don't. It uses a large blast and so, no matter what type of attack it is, its controlled by the fact that it uses a large blast rather then getting hung up on the type of attack it is.

So... a superheavy cant stomp when forced to snapfire? Because the attack type does not matter at all and it uses a blast template.
Vector strike and HoW would also be impossible as the attack type does not matter and attacks that do not use BS are not allowed when forced to snap shot and both are clearly no melee attacks so they must be shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Nov 07 2014, 12:03

Close combat attacks clearly cant snap shoot and would never have to. Think its still clutching at straws. If it is anything, you can argue a technicality at most. But most players should remember common sense > technicalities

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PostSubject: Re: jinking and bombing runs   jinking and bombing runs - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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