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 Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?

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Caspaar
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Caspaar

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PostSubject: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 19:06

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if a Aberration with Agonizer is worth it. Most list I read equip them with Scissorhands, but I thought against MEQ Armies the Agonizer would really put a dent in units (with the reroll and ignoring armour).

cheers
Caspaar
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 19:23

Depends a little bit.

I think, for general purpose, having a constant AP3 will be better than a 1/6th chance of being AP2 which is why I tend to lean towards the Agonizer.

However, I have been exploring the Scissorhand a bit more recently due to Rending being useful against vehicles. I tend to use Grotesques units as a spearhead/distraction for my opponent to deal with while the rest of my army is getting into position. If I'm playing an army that is within a lot of transports, an Agonizer really isn't going to do anything for me whereas a Scissorhand has immediate applicability.

If your opponent uses a lot of vehicles, I recommend the Scissorhand. If they tend to have squishy targets on the ground, Agonizer is my choice. And lastly, if you find yourself going up against a lot of Tau with their 2+ saves, then probably a Scissorhand.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 20:06

I am a big fan of both weapons but though I advocate Aggies on Archons as the weapon of choice, I choose Scissorhands on Aberrations.

To me the basic logic is this;

Both weapons are poison 4+ for re-rolls.
The Aggie gives a great boost against 3+ saves or worse.
The rending gives a lesser boost against 2+ saves or worse and also a solid boon versus vehicles.
The Scissorhand also costs substantially less.

So one weapon costs less and is better against a wide variety of foes. Any armor save of 5+ doesn't matter to Grots, and so the Aggie is good for 3+ and 4+ and yet is useless against 2+ which is an issue for Grots to chew through.

So I take the weapon with the best overall boost and also the boost that helps against the biggest issue for Grots which is 2+ saves in my opinion.
The attached HQ can also be given tools to help with this, and thus make the overall unit better able to wreck whatever I see across the table from me.

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Caspaar
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 22:52

Nice, thanks for the feedback!
Hm, I think I'll just try both. Usually I'd go for the more versatile weapon (Scissorhands), too. But my friend who I'll play the most, runs a lot of vanilla Marines in Land Raiders...so the Scissorhand would be useless against either, woulndt it?

cheers
Caspaar
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 23:58

@Thor665 wrote:
Any armor save of 5+ doesn't matter to Grots

Wait...why don't they care about 5+ armor saves? Am I missing an AP5 weapon somewhere?
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Razkien
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 00:05

I had a pretty good experience with the Scissor Hand on an Aberration during my first game.

Chaos Sorcerer with termy armor had one wound left, got a rending wound on him and finished him off in the first round of combat while the Archon was fighting a challenge. I think it did it's job (as kinda lucky as it was lol).
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 00:22

@Caspaar wrote:
But my friend who I'll play the most, runs a lot of vanilla Marines in Land Raiders...so the Scissorhand would be useless against either, woulndt it?
It would help rip through the Marine armor and...well, it theoretically could glance (or pen once you get furious charge) the Landraider I would probably just say stick to lances to deal with it.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
Any armor save of 5+ doesn't matter to Grots

Wait...why don't they care about 5+ armor saves? Am I missing an AP5 weapon somewhere?
Due to the weight of attacks we generate, anything removing less than half the wound pool will be overcome simply due to the amount of saves being forced.

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 00:35

I'm undecided yet as both weapons are great for their cost.
I started off with the Agoniser but was shaved off for points.

It mostly depends on your meta and the rest of your list.
If you run a Succubus with the grots AP2 is ok. I would like to add an Agoniser, just so the general killyness would allow you to disorderly charge if needed.
In this way the Grots can absorb overwatch for 2 or more glassy assault elements.

:Edit:
A specific tactic I'm considering is running 4+ Min-maxed Reavers (CC&HL) to put pressure all over the board. They can hide in combat together with Grots and still be outnumbered for Rampage to work.
Having a jink cover save is great but not being a legal target is better. Surely since they have Hit & Run Twisted Evil
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 01:07

Most of the time Scissorhands for me. Cheap and due to the absurd amount of attacks you generate there is plenty of opportunity to get those pesky 6 rolls.
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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 02:43

+1 for Scissorhand too

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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 02:49

So... Based on the point increase of the boss with any weapon and the character tax... Is it better to simply run boring grots and allowing the Archon/Succubus taking any major armor out?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 03:19

I advocate the Aberration as a good value upgrade.

For 20 points you can get 5 attacks (+ charge and +Rampage) with potential rending and the ability to issue challenges (and more importantly, to accept/decline them if you don't want your Archon/Haem to have to sit out and don't want them to fight the challenge - especially good for the Haem) That seems good value for a beatstick assault unit.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 03:40

Point as usual. I may tinker with a base unit leader, but that of mostly because I'm pinching pennies on points. I want all my toys.
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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 04:05

While my next Aberation will definitely have an Agonizer (mainly because I have an idea for the conversion), I think the Scissorhand is the smarter choice in case you have to face down A12 walkers. Rending will definitely keep your unit from getting stuck with a Dreadnought, even if it is just on the single model in the unit.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 04:11

I actually consider that a weakness of the Scissorhand, as it will actually deny the unit the ability to declare 'our weapons are useless'.

That said, I run a lot of lances and blasters for a reason.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 04:17

@Thor665 wrote:
I actually consider that a weakness of the Scissorhand, as it will actually deny the unit the ability to declare 'our weapons are useless'.

True, though if you are running them out of the Covens supplement(and why wouldn't you?!) they would be unable voluntarily fail a moral test due to being fearless after turn two.

Then again, if you're getting charged by Dreadnoughts you're doing something wrong Razz

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 04:47

[quote="Evil Space Elves"]
@Thor665 wrote:
if you are running them out of the Covens supplement(and why wouldn't you?!)

Because you can't get objective secured out of the covens formations, and in most competitive environments you're limited to 2 detachments. So if you take a formation from the covens that doesn't give you obsec, you're then limited to 1 other detachment choice, and therefore no other DE, unless you're going pure DE, and pure DE is pretty whack right now.

If tournaments didn't restrict formations to 2 only, DE would be in a better position right now, but I still don't know if I'd call them "good".
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 26 2014, 06:49

Quote :
While my next Aberation will definitely have an Agonizer (mainly because I have an idea for the conversion),

Mine as well, guys already coming to me. Their main job will be mopping marines and bikers, and for that agoniser is miles ahead scissors. And also that conversion idea with energised talos spine in the hands of abberation. ))

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PostSubject: Re: Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands?   Aberration Agonizer or Scissorhands? I_icon_minitimeTue Nov 04 2014, 23:22

I built a 1500 point list, with 4x Grots joined by a Haemi in a Raider.

Originally, when I build the list I gave the Haemi a Agonizer, and the Abberation a Scissorhand.

After looking at that for a few minutes, I thought, "That seems backwards".

So switched it, gave the more powerful upgrade to the Abberation. (Additionally, I made the Abberation my Warlord, 7th only requires your Warlord be a charactor, it need not be a HQ)
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