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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 04:05

I was thinking about which would be the best and most effecient way to get reliable reserve/deep strike units on the board for dark eldar.

I am on the fence and would love to know your opinions.

I am thinking of maybe an eldar autarch if I am not going mono dark eldar. Even just an autarch and a guardian jet bike unit would be fine and fairly cheap. The mantle aurarch is a good option.

The other two options I am thinking about is either running an Aegis defence line or wall of martyred imperial bunker. Both with comm relays.

The autarch is nice in that he doesn't have to baby sit the comms relay.
The other two options give the army a little bit of protection and rerolls which is a little better than the autarchs *1/-1. But both the fortifications rely on a babysitter. Which unit would make a good babysitter?

What's you opinion? I am on the fence here

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 04:26

Well what is your reserve goal?

If your hope is to basically start off the board - the Autarch is superior.
If your goal is to just have a few units in reserve and want to ensure they come on then probably the Comms relay is the way to go.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 04:35

I am highly considering getting an Aegis line to do just that. I know I KNOW!!! It goes against every fiber in my body to have a "Base" but, Sitting 20 warriors with splinter cannons or 2 blasters and 2 dark lances, yes I know 18" range but it's DPA defense. I really want to find a way to run mono DE competitively and the Aegis offers that beautiful 4+ cover, anti air, and a coms relay for very cheap. Everyone always says don't play fair, well that is the intention here. It is very synergous for our fabled "null deployment" strategy, and you get AA to boot. Drop two ravagers in there also? and enjoy that 3+ cover save will you! Especially since we lost our aerial assault, *rabble rabble rabble*. What is stopping the webway from deploying a forward strategic assault base to dump fire support for the people grabbing all the good things. Talk about a tactical Archon. The martyred wall is really cool but expensive. I also think that having that Aegis is really going to put a speed bump in anyones plan when they hear they are going to play a Dark Eldar player. You have to remember you are playing another person and anyway you can mess with their plan or train of thought is what you do to win. That little bubble is really going to force your opponent to either eat a lot of shots trying to get to whatever section that aegis controlls or try to go around it which creates a nice bubble for your units to move around in and bottleneck the enemy. I say fill it up with a bunch of warriors or trueborn and ravagers. Sit around try to get some wychs assaulting at turn 3 or 4 and let the fun begin. People will not expect it and since our Codex is so powerful at the moment I really think the Aegis is the way to go, i've been seriously thinking about it for about 4 weeks now.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 05:48

Forward base...are you saying to set up the fortification in the middle-ish of the board and then use a WWP to land behind it? If so, that'd be pretty nasty! Are there any restrictions on setting it up outside your deployment zone?

Also, scourges with 4 Splinter Cannons would be amazing behind one
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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 06:12

More along the lines of since the board is the battle zone having a base there would be a forward base. Unfortunately you can not deploy an aegis outside of your deployment. Kind of like they bunker up the WWP clicks and now they are in the battlefield in a fortified position.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 06:31

The bunker is 5pts more than the aegis. So not much more.

I plan on using a mostly reserve list.

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Its_Rumble
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 06:33

@colinsherlow wrote:
The bunker is 5pts more than the aegis.   So not much more.  

Oh i thought you were talking about the 200pt fortification with the guns.

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Archon Rixec
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 07:17

i used the aegis with comm array last game, and it was ok, but you really need to profit from it with those 20 warriors. i also suggest a sybarite for nice Ld 9
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 08:47

Instead of Warriors Blob, 2x5 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances? cheaper, 2 units (so enemy need almost two units to kill both of them), and 4 Long range Lances.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 09:00

I'm going to go with the aegis and comms relay, on the occasions that I do need something. That's going to be babysat by at the bare minimum, one Talos. Ideally I'll throw a Cronos in there too, and at higher points levels another Talos. They might only sit there all game threatening stuff with Haywire Blasters and holding an objective, but if my opponent wants that objective they're hell to shift.

I get the issue with reliability of reserves, but unless your strategy relies on a particular unit arriving at a particular time, they're not that bad. The problem comes when you only keep one or two units back and fail all your rolls. If you're reserving a lot of stuff, chances are you're going to be getting most of it coming in (remember the more rolls you make, the closer to the actual probabilities you'll get in terms of results).

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Aroban
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 09:01

Guys sorry for the silly question, please help me out:

Since GW removed fortifications from the main rulebook, where can I find the rules and point costs now?

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 09:06

Still in stronghold assault book - they basically superseded the rules but left all the points costs in there so you still 'have' to buy it (pessimistic view) or didn't invalidate the book for those who'd just bought it (optimistic view)

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 09:23

@merse24 wrote:
Forward base...are you saying to set up the fortification in the middle-ish of the board and then use a WWP to land behind it?  If so, that'd be pretty nasty!  Are there any restrictions on setting it up outside your deployment zone?
In 6th you could deploy the ADL in your half of the table.
Since 7th, I guess it is only your deployment zone (I don't have the reference here, but I am pretty sure of this)

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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 15:47

My option is a unit of Autarch, WWP DE HQ, and some DE/E elites

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 18:27

Well, the Autarch gives you Eldar units...................... Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 02:34

@LSK wrote:

In 6th you could deploy the ADL in your half of the table.

But in 6th, you were supposed to place fortifications before you even knew where your deployment zone was going to be, if I recall correctly. This is why fortifications weren't commonplace in tournaments unless the tournament house ruled the placements of the fortifications.

By the rulebook, it was entirely possible for you to purchase and place a fortification, only to not have access to it when the game started because it was in your enemy's deployment zone.
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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 06:49

6th ed rulebook p118:
Quote :
Next you need to set up your battlefield using the wargames terrain in your collection. First, the players must determine their table halves and deployment zones, then deploy fortifications and finally set up the rest of the terrain for the battle.

The confusion may came that sometimes with friends or at LGS, you setup terrain before choosing your side. But the 6th ed rulebook was clear:  setup deployement map, setup table halves, setup fortifications then steup terrain (while fortifications were already in place).

6th ed rulebook p120:
Quote :
Next, players must place any fortifications they have in their arrnies before placing any other terrain. If both players have one or more fortifications then take it in turns to deploy them, starting with the player who chose table halves. Fortifications must be set up wholly within the owning player's table half and not within 3" of another fortification. Fortifications count against the terrain density limit (discussed later) of the 2" by 2" area in which the majority of the fortification lies.

The difference is that now you can only place them in your deployment zone, no more footsloggers advanced ADL allowing them to seek shelter after moving/running.


back to topic: ADL com relay + Allied Autarch for 2++ reserve on turn 2 with 6 razorwings RSR. This what I would do Smile

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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 15:22

Quote :
Next you need to set up your battlefield using the wargames terrain in your collection. First, the players must determine their table halves and deployment zones, then deploy fortifications and finally set up the rest of the terrain for the battle.

Oh, that's right! It was that, by the book, you put your fortification down, then your opponent could plop a large building right in front of it to make it useless with terrain placement. Also, if you placed it in your own table half, but not in your deployment zone, your opponent could infiltrate units into it, I think.

@LSK wrote:
6th ed rulebook p118:
The difference is that now you can only place them in your deployment zone, no more footsloggers advanced ADL allowing them to seek shelter after moving/running.


back to topic: ADL com relay + Allied Autarch for 2++ reserve on turn 2 with 6 razorwings RSR. This what I would do Smile

Yeah, I've considered using both the autarch plus a comms relay for 2+ re-rollables with null deployment. 6 Razorwings could be nasty, but you'd need to ensure survival till turn 2.
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 16:52

It's worth pointing out the real space raid detachment does not let you take fortifications. So no comms relay unless you are running a normal CAD.

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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 21:17

@Mushkilla wrote:
It's worth pointing out the real space raid detachment does not let you take fortifications. So no comms relay unless you are running a normal CAD.

Right, but if you're running an autarch already, could just make that your CAD.
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 21:38

@Its_Rumble wrote:
I really want to find a way to run mono DE competitively and the Aegis offers that beautiful 4+ cover, anti air, and a coms relay for very cheap. Everyone always says don't play fair, well that is the intention here. It is very synergous for our fabled "null deployment" strategy, and you get AA to boot. Drop two ravagers in there also? and enjoy that 3+ cover save will you! Especially since we lost our aerial assault, *rabble rabble rabble*.

Couple quick comments on things you said in here.

First, it sounds like you want an aegis to have both the quad gun and the comms as I also did, but it's one or the other unfortunately. I've considered doing the fortification set that has a bastion and an aegis to get both but then the cost gets pretty steep.

Second, ravagers and raiders sit too high to pull off 25% cover from an aegis or I agree it would be great to set them behind it.

I'm still unable to decide on a good comms relay purchase myself as the firestorm has aa and comms but costs too much, the aegis is a cheap one but offers little else to my vehicles and can't provide the aa as well, and the bastion aegis combo is just too expensive of a tax for a quad gun and a comms.
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 22 2014, 22:26

I'm thinking of running an Autarch and a bunker with comms relay. Inside the bunker will be some allied Dark Reapers.

Taking an Autarch also gives the ability to not just bring stuff in when I want but also a good chance to keep certain things off until turn 3 if required. This can be important if playing another Alpha/Beta strike army like GK's or Space Wolves.

This could be excessive, but I find that each of them provide good benefits to my army over and above the reserve manipulations. The Bunker allows me to shelter a unit turn 1 but not rely on cover saves, as most my army will be in reserve. It also provides great protection for a shooty unit like Dark Reapers or even Dark Lance True Born.

The Autarch provides a good boost to reavers, a unit that I would like to see really wreck some havoc. They can also split apart late in the game in Maelstrom for VP chasing.
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 24 2014, 06:44

ADL- Mandrakes for cover shenanigans

Bunker (what i would choose) w/ warriors - nice little fort that should survive to get your guys all in
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 24 2014, 07:59

I have been running Mandrakes and a mantle autarch. I like playing with eldar allies so that helps. My lists are usually 50/50. Mandrakes soak up a lot of attention if you place them right, and with good terrain, autarch can hide from most things (though I will admit that a lot of tournament tables are flat)
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PostSubject: Re: best way to get reserve manipulation?   best way to get reserve manipulation? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 27 2014, 14:58

I think that I will either take the bunker with the comms relay or an autarch.

The reason for me wanting to take the bunker of the aegis is the I can give a vehicle or two a 4+ cover save or hide some infantry behind it.

If I go for the autarch I will either go the mantle/bike autarch or keep him cheap and just give him a meltagun and join him to a unit of infantry or blaster born with a wwp/blaster archon. For eldar troops I will keep them cheap and take 3 bikes. I want to try and stick to mostly dark eldar.

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