DE vs 30K Salamanders - 2000pts - lots of AV14

Hello everyone,

I just had a quite entertaining game against a 30K Salamanders with lots of AV14 and decided to share it with you. In advance I need to point out that the pictures are illustrative and might be an inch or two wrong in some positions, but IMHO it is good enough for the batrep.

30K Salamanders list:
30K Chapter rules are much, much better than 40K. Great diversity and a real change of feel with each chapter and unique units. And no ATSKNF, which is one of the rules that are breaking 40K (especially assault) in mine and my friend's mind. Thats one of the reasons why he chose to play 30K ruleset.

HQ
- 30K version of chapter master with 2+/3++/FNP or something like that with gazillion S8 attacks, but only 3W. With awesome model from Hitech Miniatures.

- Dreadnought HQ - AV 14/12/10, flamers, IWND, 4HP and really mean attitude if he gets close to you...

TROOPS
- 2x Tacticals (30K have only bolters, nades and pwr armour and ccw) with extra CCW and Rhinos with HBolters. With some rule (Rite of War or smthing) that they can double their bolter shots and forfeit next round shooting, once per game.

NOT SURE OF CATEGORY
30K Termies - Firedrakes - TH + Dragonscale Shield (SS), they are 2W each, WS5 and more expensive, riding in Land Raider with 2x TL Lascannon and TL Multimelta. Beautiful FW models.

Pyroclasts - Something like Honour Guard, all with weapons that combine S6 meltas and S5 AP5 Flamers, 2+ armour and FW models that make you want a second job... Riding with the chapter master in Land Raider Achilles - Lance, Melta immune AV14 with 2xTL Volkite Culverin (S6 AP5 Heavy4, for each failed save roll another) and Quad-Mortar (either S5 AP4, Barrage, Heavy4, Blast (3''), ShellShock, or S8 AP4, Heavy4, Sunder)
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TOTAL 2K

My DE list:

HQ - Archon with Blaster, SF, Agoni and Venom with 2SC

TROOPS - 2x5 Kabalite Warriors w. Blaster in Raider with NS, DL, AS

ELITES - 1x5 Incubi incl. Klaivex in Raider with DL, NS, AS
         - 5 Blasterborn in Raider with NS, DL
         - 5 Blasterborn in Venom with 2SC (didnt have enough Raiders :-))

FAST ATTACK - 2x5 Scourges with HWB
                  - Venom with 2SC
                  - Venom with 2SC
                  - 2x Razorwing with DLs

HEAVY SUPPORT - 2x Ravager with 3xDL, NS
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TOTAL 1970 (I just didnt bother to spend 30 points... I felt I have all I need)

MISSION DETAILS:
Killpoints, 1st turn NF, DE won deployment, Manders failed to seize
Warlord Traits: absolutely no influence on the game so didnt bother to remember. :-)
Deployment: Wide

DEPLOYMENT

I deployed with most of my forces in reserves. I knew I would not need any poison on the board for some time and didnt want my opponent to concentrate on my AI as getting KPs from his infantry were the easiest to get. The only thing I baited him with was the Incubi Raider. He had to choose whether to take out my anti tank or spend a lot of ordnance to kill a 3+ jinking raider with 3+ models...

DE TURN 1

With his Rhinos out of LOS I decided to take out the Dread HQ first. I know I should have perhaps start plinking wounds off Achilles, but the Dread would cause me great pains later in the game as he has strong flamers and can charge my vehicles and thus ignoring jink. He would make me scatter and forgo too much shooting in favour of redeployment. But one unit of scourges were OOR and the second rolled dismally. All my shooting caused only 2HP damage. I advanced what I could and tried to keep the second unit of scourges hidden.

SALAMANDERS TURN 1

The Manders did what they were bound to do - shuffle forward and fire everything, but failing to do a single HP of damage... I had to jink here and there OFC, even with one of my Ravagers, but I was whole and ready for the next round. Thats where I realized how few shooting his list has... yes all those TL high-S weapons look badass, but its just 2x S9, 8x S6, 5x S8, all TLed. Compared to mine 25xS8, 8x HWB... Next time I will be facing 2 Sicarans or Sicaran and Fire Raptor instead a slow Dread so it wont be so good. :-) He did not shoot my Scourges yet as he felt that he will either draw them forward to shoot on the Achilles and have them charged by the Dread, or I will continue to fire at the Dread which was a clear sacrifical unit in this game.

DE TURN 2

Reserves: RWF, Archon Venom, Venom, Trueborn in Venom, Trueborn in Raider.
I placed a RWF to get a lance shot on the Rhino sides and zip off field next turn as I wanted it to come on T4 with its rockets ready to blast the tacticals I was going to unshell... :-) My Archon and Venom were placed OOR of his shooting as their "input" was not needed and they were easy KP.
TB units DSed in range for some shooting. Luckily did not scatter so I would have to disembark to get into range. Second unit of scourges maneuvered to get a shot on the Dread. I launched the volley of Darklight and Haywire and managed to kill a Rhino, the Dread and plink a HP off both the normal LR (with Crew Stunned) and Achilles.

SALAMANDERS TURN 2

He flat-outed his LR, shuffled his Achilles and tried to hide his second Rhino behind the first one's wreck, his Tacticals moved on the hill and used their Rite. Together with Achilles, they erased my Scourges. Other shooting (LR) only made one of my Ravagers jink again (although I didn't have to as he was snap-shotting anyway, which I did not realize...).

DE TURN 3

Reserves: RWF2 and Venom 2
I placed the arriving RWF so it could fly off next turn or continue to fire if needed. Venom flew in to just shower the tacticals I was about to crack out of the second Rhino. The RWF that arrived last turn flew off. My leftmost Ravager flat-outed to get out of the Firedrakes' (riding in LR) charge range. He would snap-shot anyway so no fuss. So first I opened the Rhino, plinked a second HP from LR and Achilles and now I had target for my poison I fired away with everything... killing 6 tacticals from each squad with both rockets from arriving RWF and poison. For the record I scored 27 wounds on the second tacticals... he failed 5... the 6th was taken out by the newly arrived Venom. As for the second Tacticals, they were reduced to 6 remaining by splinter fire and promptly charged by the hungry incubi, who easily rampaged through all 6 of them, leaving them in the open...

SALAMANDERS TURN 3

Land Raider pushed further to get the Linebreaker objective. Achilles moved and spew forth the big guy and his Pyroclasts. Shooting saw my Trueborn die with their Venom (should have backed them off instead trying to shoot them at all costs - trading a chance for 1KP for 2KPs I lost), Scourges too. The tacticals used their Rite and the 4 of them threw 16 bolter shots at Incubi, killing 2 and Klaivex (my bad positioning of the Klaivex during consolidation).

DE TURN 4

Reserves: RWF1 came back
This is a round where I made the most mistakes... I left the warrior raider in the hot-zone to get off the warrior's blaster shot. Needlessly. And as soon as I realized that the Pyroclasts can fire their weapons as templates I almost cried out. Luckily my opponent did not spot that... I placed Venoms too close (costing me a KP), placed the incubi raider to provide a screen for my Archon's Venom. Trueborn Raider hopped to get some shots on the Achilles with only one weapon able to target it. Moved the RWF in front of the Achilles to get 2 lance shots on it. I realized now that I should have consolidated the incubi towards their raider and zip away as I basically gave the KP for them away. Shooting saw LR dropping to 1 last HP and all remaining shots bounced off the Achilles.

SALAMANDERS TURN 4

Punishment turn... I lost incubi, their raider, Venom and Ravager. I secretly prayed that he would not spot the baaaadly positioned warrior raider and my prayers were answered. And my flyer lost a HP.

DE TURN 5

I ducked tail and went out of range, LOS or charge range while keeping myself within striking range of the LR and achilles. I knew I could not kill the Pyroclasts or the boss. I managed to bring down both tanks and finish off the tacticals.

SALAMANDERS TURN 5

Nothing really happened in this turn. My opponent was just repositioning for the next turn if it should come, but it didnt.

GAME END

DE: Linebreaker, First Blood, 7 kills = 9
SAL: Linebreaker, 9 kills = 10
RESULT: Draw

MY OBSERVATIONS:

Scourges are really really fragile and single-purpose. I fear that FW Reapers are much better Haywire choice and with the Ravager price increase, I think they are superior. Scourges need to be lower profile. I see them still better in the poison duty or combined one with Blasters. As HWB they draw too much fire and a single blast can end them.

Trueborn got much better in my eyes with 3+ jinking vehicle with 3HP. Their alpha strike with Raider is 5 lances. I finally feel confident to use them especially with the raider jink not affecting the TB.

Incubi are as good as ever... but dont throw them away like I did in KP missions. :-D

RWF... wwwweeeell... they did some work certainly, but I feel I could have gotten more from Reavers. They are also no fun to play... if you know what I mean. :-)

Blasters on Warriors - not in my style of play. They fired maybe one shot and they expose the warriors too much. I am not going that way any more.

Archon alone in Venom... he cannot be safer than in reserves and he might be used as a great bait... I think I will try a few games like this. :-)

Ravagers - still gooood... I think that NS are worth on these as they will be under constant fire and one has to be unafraid to jink.

Nightshields... you know... I did not roll a single "3" on my jink save the whole game... Just imagine this - if you have 4 raiders and all NSed and you are facing 60 shots over the game, you get 40 hits and cca 30 glances/penes due to our low armour. Which means that the NS kick in 5 times on average over the game, saving 5HPs, costing 60pts... Is it worth it? The issue is very complicated I know, but just thinking...

Aethersails - greater than great for the price! Must buy!

Overall it was a fun battle and I have something to say... dont let yourself be scared of AV14 or FW stuff. Its expensive and by taking it your opponent is diminishing his ability to strike at you. Yes, its brutal on paper, but its not like he can have plenty and every loss hurts three times more than any loss of yours.

Okay. Finished. Sorry that it was so short and bad read, but I wanted to do it fast. Next batrep will be narrative. :-)

Anyway I would like to hear your opinions on the battle.

As a salamander player and converting to 30K I enjoyed this! Pyroclasts are very nasty but can only take land raiders as transports (30K salamanders cant take drop pods which is annoying as it is the best way to use salamanders!). As a result, Salamander lists are really expensive, especially with firedrakes (essentially GK Paladins).

I liked the bat-rep, short and sweet. I think you would have creamed him if you could crack open the transports. With so few things, even with 2+ they would go down. But hey ho the Dark Glance is back!

10-9 sounds more like a loss to me?

KP missions are always our trickiest I think - there aren't many armies bring more kill points to the table and they certainly don't bring anything as fragile as ours, so to get close was a good effort.

As you mentioned on a few occasions, positioning is crucial as a DE player, and I think scourges are a unit that really stresses that point - they absolutely need to be placed right to allow them to do their thing whilst avoiding return fire (and remember, the rulebook specifically states that being able to see wings does not allow you to target the unit).

I thought 0-1 pts difference is still a draw... But that just may be our local thing. Neither of us considered it anything else but a draw, but I could have won if I didnt make mistakes.

Anyway thanks for commenting.

@Grub:
Glad to see another 30K player. I really think that 30K is vastly superior system. Its just little things, but they make a world of difference. The only thing I am sorry about is that there will be no 30K conversion for Xenos. No relics, no pre-Vect Commoragh, etc... I was thinking about starting a 30K Eldar/Dark Eldar project but it would not be widely accepted IMHO. I am not even sure that my local gaming scene would accept it. I already had a fandex made for previous edition which reflected some old DE technology and features so first steps are done. Although even if I wrapped it all and sent it to FW, I doubt they would accept it and at least take it into consideration for issue. Which makes all that effort needed bit unrewarding. :-)

@The_Burning_Eye:
Very true what you said. I want to add another observation. Note that if the enemy deploys castled like this in the corner, we have a great opportunity to actually outrange them or limit their fire for many turns as they have to traverse about half the battlefield width to get any closer and thats not easy with 6'' per turn and we do have the space where to go. If he had divided the forces and put half to the left and half to the right, I would have a tough time protecting my Archon Venom (which were 3KP) and other easy KP as well.

I'm yet to get any Horus Heresy books to see the rules for 30K, just basing stuff off memory from titbits I've seen. What are the best changes other then ATWKNF? Fortunately my friends let me take the firedrakes and pyroclasts with their 30K points then just give them standard SM rules (e.g/ Pyroclasts follow all restrictions and army rules as devastators, firedrakes TH termies etc.) its good the FW say you can use them in 40K but come to an agreement with who you play with. Drop Pod pyroclasts are horrible though and I try not to use it as it is far to horrible!

Salamanders have a Rite that forbids Deep Strike anyway. :-)

Well the changes are mainly in great chapter tactics. All legions are exactly same in the core, but each has some unique units and different Rites of War (30K chapter tactics). These Rites bring focus on the thing that each chapter does best in a way that makes you really want to fight as that chapter does. The rules are also beautifully thought through from fluff point of view. The rules are REALLY playtested. I have read some interview with a member of FW who said that in one stage they had to play 5 hours every day for 3 months or something like that. :-D Thats what I call playtesting. :-)

As for the unique troops, they truly are unique in equip and rules. The only thing that comes even close to what I am talking about are the Thousand Sons / Noise Marines / Plague Marines. That kind of differentiation for each legion. 2-3 units usually and some HQ and of course Primarchs... Who are deadly, further buff up the legion in its tactics, but, with exception of Mortarion, relatively easy to kill and are worth more VPs.

The gear of the units is different. No Las/Plas tacticals. Just bolters. The equipping of the units is just different from 40K.

Oh and tanks and flyers... Where to start...? You can buy insanely tough and insanely powerful beasts that would make every 40K player shudder. But you pay for it through your nose. That goes for everything. Options, great options and brilliant options... but the costs ramp up real fast. Sure, Achilles is powerful and tough, but... you know...

Good example is that the list my opponent played would be about 1500 pts in 40K game... :-) But some features from 30K make this list better than the 40K list.

Yes its very silly and annoying You would think that any tactical genius within the Salamanders would consider that his flamers and meltas would be more effective next to the enemy rather than strolling towards them!

Yes, the upgrades etc that you can put on 30K stuff is amazing, but the pay off is that you have a really elite army but it is small so you have to be effective with it!

We play tested trying to Kill Vulkan. Literally a small army and special characters Vs Vulkan. I'm not sure my mates would say he was easy to kill

did you try poison? :-D

Haha fortunately I'm the only one with Dark Eldar! Stick a primarch up against marines etc you have a different story. Smiting Draigo in a single round of combat is fun though!

Edit: 2 rounds of combat

Oh and as for the no-DS rite - Every chapter has bonuses AND limitations. I guess Salamanders are supposed to be advancing wall of fire. :-) Its a balance tool that is needed. .-)

Really nice batrep, thoroughly enjoyed.


Dat archon all alone in his privacy.

Well... him and those three wyches on the venom.

Thank you. That was the first time I used Archon in such lone-wolf manner. In this game it was worth it. It is sad, but I have come to the conclusion that Archons are reduced to either expensive MEQ killers (which is exposing them to direct threat) or a WWP caddy, which is equally dangerous. As is my custom, I started to think how to make a disadvantage into an advantage.

In KP game Archon is a VP. Putting him in a transport in unit makes it all 3VP... No-likey! In other games he is 1VP. Some people use him as a 2+ save tank for Trueborn or another valuable unit. Some people emphasize on the 2+ by pairing him with a T5 Grots or Sslyth. All this creates 300pt-ish unit worth 1VP at minimum!

So let us look at it from a different angle - how it can be used against the opponent...?

Firstly, ensuring that the Archon arrives only when he has his FNP and thus potentially negating his SF fail as discussed elsewhere on this forum is great - so possibly, the best place for him is in reserves.

Secondly, ensuring that he can arrive anywhere on the board, either where he can do some damage or in safety is a good thing too - so possibly, it is good to either take WWP or Venom.

Thirdly, he is worth a VP. That is not a negative in all regards - it makes him an important target and therefore a good bait... Presenting him in the right place in his 4+ jinking or 5++ (for assault) Venom or emerging somewhere just out of LOS from WWP can make some opponents go after him and SF has a good chance of frustrate your enemies trying to kill him.

Fourthly, remember that he can embark with WWP on a raider (with selection of units ranging from ObjSec to dangerous killyness) AND have the unit disembark into cover, while he enjoys that 4+ or 3+ jinking 3HP vehicle with another Lance Shot or Dissie. And 'lo! What to shoot at? The dangerous unit in cover or Archon with that vehicle and 2++? Or continue shooting at the other units (Ravagers perhaps)?

That is the basic philosophy. :-)