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 Incubi are pretty good.

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Mth
Hellion
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PostSubject: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 00:26

So today I played a game against a guy he brought chaos space marines and Daemons. So incubi as actually really good. They killed lots of stuff. And the grenades thing didn't matter they still caused tons of damage. And the klaivex was pretty boss to dealing most of the damage.
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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 02:05

The weird thing about the no grenade complaint is they never actually got grenades. SO this is hardly anything new.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 02:42

You used to be able to pair them with an Archon for a PGL that gave them grenades, now you cannot. That's what most people are noting as an issue.

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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 03:01

They still can do that.  Of course, the PGL is not what it used to be, so really the complaint is about the PGL. Fair enough.  But that is a situation most lists will face as well...  unless the whole unit has some form of assault grenade, then they are hosed for I when assaulting into cover.  It seems kind of unfair, but perhaps as the codecii come out, we will be seeing less use of grenades in general for this purpose.

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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 03:32

Well I take that back. In the new codecii thus far, the elite assault units all seem to have some form of assault grenade or another. Sad That kinda sucks... *feeling left out*

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D34m0nSp4wn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 09:50

Perhaps it was considered an easy way to balance them a bit, they were pretty mean before. Obviously it is a bit of a cop out if that is the reason for the change as it would have made more sense to keep assault grenades but to adjust their stats, but I guess that is hard and takes loads of play testing to see if you have the balance right.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 10:02

@D34m0nSp4wn wrote:
Perhaps it was considered an easy way to balance them a bit, they were pretty mean before.

Sorry but an assault unit that needs a IC with specific gear in order to carry out its basic function is not 'pretty mean'. It's simply inadequate. Taking away the ability of the IC to overcome that inadequacy, on the other hand, is indeed 'pretty mean'.

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 12:20

The Autarch with a banshee mask helps..... but if you are running a pure DE list they can be very hard to use. That being said in most games I play their is more LOS blocking terrain than area terrain meaning every unit is not going to be in cover. This is especially true if you put all your objectives out in the open... forcing them to move out of cover to grab them (even more true when its maelstrom missions). I think once people learn how to bait (or force) their opponents into coming out of cover the incubi become an invaluable element of DE assault which I think is very much worth it... you just need planning and some buddy units to absorb overwatch to pull it off.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 12:28

There is no such thing as area terrain any more.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 12:30

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
There is no such thing as area terrain any more.

True but not really that important as pretty much every piece of terrain is described as being difficult terrain now, and it's that that causes the Initiative penalty.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 15:20

Citadels woods, Craters, battle ruins ecc are all area terrain
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 15:24

@Cerve wrote:
Citadels woods, Craters, battle ruins ecc are all area terrain

The 7th edition rulebook doesn't define area terrain, it's a 6th edition concept, a model must now be 25% obscured to gain a cover save, unless it's either in a ruin (or a crater? not sure), in which case the cover save is specified without the 25% requirement.

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Mth
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 17:30

Incubi don't really need the grenades sure its annoying as hell but still I took zero woinds from 10 chaos space marines and a sorcerer. The were hitting me on 4 most missed and two wounded. I saved all 2 and then made them run and I iver ran them they made most of their points back killing the stuff off.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 17:41

@Mth wrote:
Incubi don't really need the grenades sure its annoying as hell but still I took zero woinds from 10 chaos space marines and a sorcerer. The were hitting me on 4 most missed and two wounded. I saved all 2 and then made them run and I iver ran them they made most of their points back killing the stuff off.
While that sort of stuff can certainly happen, it is not normal in a sense of percentage chance.
Also, the initiative donk hurts them bad versus units that they would otherwise cream.

Take, say, an Honorguard - Marines w. power swords. In a straight up fight in the open Incubi are blatantly superior to them and should be able to kill far more than they lose.
However - if they assault through cover suddenly the Incubi can and will be mauled (barring oddly poor dice on your opponent's part, natch Wink ).
That is the issue of lacking assault grenades. It limits the options and capabilities of the unit.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 18:41

10 marines, 1attack each, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 3+ to save, 6+ FNP on turn 2 assault. That is about 1 dead incubus.

Now... If they assault a close combat squad in cover... Not as good. But Incubi seem best when picking on weaker targets and running over them.

All in all, Incubi seem solid even without grenades.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 19:01

@Myrvn wrote:
Now... If they assault a close combat squad in cover... Not as good. But Incubi seem best when picking on weaker targets and running over them.
I am not sure I buy into the idea of a 30 point AP2 model built for beating up weak things. I'd rather pay 25 for the Grot and have it be able to beat up both weak and strong things.

10 assaulted Marines would equal;

20 overwatch shots - 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds, .74 dead Incubi. (.62 with 6+ FNP)
10 attacks at I 4 - 5 hit, 3.33 wound, 1.11 dead Incubi (.92 with 6+ FNP)

The Marines also do better if they have a Sarge (even with just a chainsword), a flamer, and almost any special weapon. Generally speaking it's about 2-3 dead Incubi before I get to swing (more if the Sarge has a power sword or maul, though less if he's packing a powerfist/axe - though that still hurts)

That's 60-90 points dead before I get a chance to beat up a ruddy Tac squad.
I feel I have better uses for my points than that.

I'll be honest in that I thought Incubi were only 'okay' when they could take grenades though, but I do think they got worse than they were for the lack of them.

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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 19:45

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
There is no such thing as area terrain any more.

there is still terrain you can deploy inside of that will force the initiative one rule. So really, there is area terrain, even if that's not what it is called.

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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 20:18

Thor, that makes sense. Points taken. My role for them has simply been different and over powering non-assault units.

I guess my thought is that the price of admission for grenades was excessive in the first place. I would rather run a larger squad with a few casualties than buy an archon with grenades.

For me, AP2 wasn't a thing as I am leery of assaulting a 3++ squad. So the momentary switch to AP3 due to FAQ wasn't an issue to me. With the significant changes in 6th/7th I find them in assault with terminators more often. And big Orks (don't remember name).
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 20:44

Incubi are 20 points if it makes a difference, not 30.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 21:12

Yeah, I had a mistype there - Grots are 35 also, it's not 30 to 25 it's 20 to 35.
My point is the same though - Grots are good at assaulting pretty much anything from chaff infantry to vehicles.
Incubi are good at assaulting...things with decent armor saves that lack much overwatch or ability to hit back.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 22:24

On the bright side they can hit at Initiative if the enemy squad in cover is pinned. Now, what have we got that causes pinning...

Oh yeah. Nothing.

To be honest I still like Incubi. No grenades option does suck though. (Btw Norrin Incubi could take plasma grenades as an upgrade from 2003-2010, so combined with the phantasm era have spent more time able to solar dudes in cover than not)

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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 20 2014, 22:30

If only PGL caused pinning instead of fear...

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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 00:25

@the burning eye: citadels woods e co. are the same as old area terrain
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 00:54

Incubi costing more than a Reaver and 2.5 times a Warrior makes the lack of grenades hilarious. In this day and age, I'm also not certain that "unit that kills bad units in close combat" is a role that anyone needs filled. You can't charge Tau due to dying to overwatch. Charging Astra Militarum is similar in many cases.

I guess you shine by charging Centurions out of cover? But I'm not sure that is a situation I believe happens.
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PostSubject: Re: Incubi are pretty good.    Incubi are pretty good.  I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 21 2014, 01:16

GW problems.

"Oh no, we made thrown plasma grenades really good, and now we can't give them to units like Incubi that really need them for assault! If only there was some kind of alternative, like some kind of field that Incubi could project, with some ready made fluff about how it causes debilitating pain that could duplicate the effects of assault grenades without letting them throw them... gosh, this problem is really tormenting me. I'd better leave them as is for now, and hope no one publishes the codex while I'm puzzling it out at Bugman's."

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