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PreacherOfDeath
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Join date : 2011-08-16

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PostSubject: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 18:54

So, ignoring all the goofy hats and toys, how do you make a leader for your DE? I love Huskblade and Crucible shenanigans, but they're SO ineffective in a serious game.

As always, goal oriented appraches work best. What does a Real Life commander do? She augments the abilities of his troops, be it the elites, the rank and file grunts, the armor, or everyone subtly. She can do some insane feats occasionally, but her job is to lead, not to hog glory.

So, the rest of your army dictates your commander, unless your commander is the focal point himself.

Running WWP? Obviously this limits your choices to an Archon or Haemonculus.

So, what are the reasons behind picking which choice?

Archon, Succubus, and Haemonculus are all reasonably costed, and are really only their wargear choices. So, let's look at how their potential differentiates them.

---

A haemonculus is the cheapest, base. He comes with a pain token too. And you can fit 3 per slot. Also, despite the rest of the coven's theme, the haem is also the weakest physically. With no armor options, few attacks, and low WS, even T4 can't save him from a quick death in CC. There are few shooting options too. Despite the immediate draw of the pain token, the haem, like most medics, is a SUPPORT character. So, we want options that support the squad he's with.

WWP is already an option. This is the cheapest and best way to get them.
Venom Blade is not so S dependent, so it's a good choice if you expect the haem to reach CC.
Power Weapon is VERY S dependent. But, its increases drastically if you can get another token for FC. With wracks or Grots, this becomes very nice.
Mindphase Gauntlet seems nice, but it requires the haemonculus to go first, so this requires a but more planning than the Power Weapon. With more I, or against the only power fist in a squad without power weapons, it could work very nicely, though - but not on upgrade characters.
Agoniser is ok if you can dump points on him, but with 4 attacks on the charge you inflict one wound statistically, so you need to increase attacks somehow.

Animus Vitae is reworked now, totally different. Only useful if you're good at assault
Liquifier Guns are always good, and an extra gun on MSU wracks or grotesques is great support.
Scissorhand is expensive, but is a marked improvement on the venom blade by granting extra attacks.
Hexrifle seems good, because it allows Haem to snipe from cover with BS4... but the hexrifle's benefits over standard splinter weapons is surprisingly small, so Avoid.
Shattershard is GREAT. As a One-use-only item, it is not mutually exclusive with another template wargear choice, like the liquifier.

Also, consider the Ancient Upgrade for one Haem. An extra WS, I, and A each make a HUGE difference.
More attacks improve poison weapons like Venomblade and Scissorhands. More initiative and attacks make a Mindphase Guantlet a GREAT choice. If you can guarantee your Ancient Haemonculus 2 pain tokens, I think that with Furious Charge a Mindphase gauntlet is the best CC choice.

So, some sample builds. remember, you always get 3 per slot, whether or not one is an ancient.

75 point Pain token
Haemonculus
Shattershard
Liquifier

100 point Threat Neutralizer
Ancient Haemonculus
Mindphase Gauntlet
Liquifier

140 point WWP carrier
Ancient Haemonculus
Scissorhands
Liquifier
WWP

65 point Budget
Haemonculus
Liquifer
Venom Blade

---

The succubus is the lone wolf. If you just need a combat monster, the succubus is your woman.

Ridiculously high WS and I and 4 attacks is crazy. She gets combat drugs too. 0 defensive options.

Blast Pistol would be great with BS 6, but she should be fleeting anyway.
Electrocorrosive whip could work here as a support option to stop S6+ from negating FNP, but since most S6+ is also a power weapon, all you do is make it harder to wound her squad.
Venom Blade is good for producing raw wounds, Hydra Gauntlets get raw attacks.
Agoniser is your best Power Weapon option. The power weapon is too expensive here, even with combat drugs
Razorflails are a almost waste if you get the re-roll wounds drug, otherwise they get much better
Do you REALLY need another, or a single shardnet? Didn't think so.
Haywires are bad. Don't risk your T3 HQ getting wounded by an exploding vehicle. (Somebody who knows the rules well, do Wyches get Invuln saves against vehicles exploded by combat?) Also would you really waste ALL those attacks? Be serious.

My favorites:

70 point Budget
Succubus
Venom Blade/Hydra Gauntlets

Do you want more attacks, or more wounds? Venom blade if you don't expect to get FC, and you don't have Sliscus to improve odds of getting Grave Lotus or Painbringer. Otherwise, Hydra Gauntlets

85 point power weapon death
Succubus
Agoniser

The succubus/archon debate reminds me of chefs arguing about knives. European knives have these excellent, comfy grips to make sure you can precisely wield the knife. Japanese knives have the same, simplistic aesthetic - a cylindrical wooden grip with no concern about comfort; it doesn't matter how the knife feels in your hand, but how sharp it is.

The succubus is the Japanese knife. It cuts well and cuts best. Nothing else.

80 points support
Succubus
Electrocorrosive whip

WARNING! I HAVE NOT PLAYTESTED THIS!
Could be interesting. Doesn't affect upgrade characters, but if you can take a Space Wolf/Blood Angels/Belial/Vulkan down to strength 4 or less? Your wyches will thank you.

---

And last, the Archon. Certainly, with excellent WS, BS, I, and A, the Archon is the most versatile.

Venom Blade - ALWAYS good. Poison is so good in this book.
Blast Pistol - no, actually. If you can't fleet then take
Blaster - Yes, you lose an attack. But if you're not fleeting it's because you aren't close enough to assault. Even if you're RIGHT THERE, you can set up a multi-assault, or the ensuing consolidate, or protect against more units assaulting in subsequent turns with Fleet.
Power Weapon - Too many better options.
Agoniser - probably the best place to take one, after the 'Bus
Electrocorrosive Whip - Like the power weapon, dwarfed by better options. Take the Succubus for this, if at all.
Huskblade - What does this do that someone else can't do better? MCs are not a threat, or threatened by S4 or S3. I guess you can hunt Sanguinary Priests and enemy Haemonculi, but why bother?
Djin Blade - much better than the power weapon. Risky, but SO MANY attacks.

Clone Field and Shadow Field - if you have a way to cut enemy attacks down, or lower their ability to hit or wound, take the Clone Field. If you have a Djin blade, take it to negate rolling doubles. Shadow Field is always good - we can really take 2 per army now? OP CHEESE.

Soul-trap: if your weapon benefits significantly from Strength, take it. So, if you follow my advice you will only see this with a Djin blade. Power weapon likes it too.

Combat drugs: usually help you hit better (uneeded) charge better (if alone or with a drug unit. DON'T GO ALONE) or wound better. If you can afford them, or have a djin blade/power weapon you can take them.

WWP - if you want, you can take this on an archon instead, so you don't need haemonculi. You will know if you need this or not, I trust.

Phantasm Grenades - if your escorting unit doesn't have grenades (OMG INCUBI) you MUST take this. Otherwise, too expensive just to deny attacks back from a squad that should be mostly but not completely dead. NOTE: Harlequins don't need grenades, read flip-belts carefully.

Favorite builds:

135 point Incubi escort:
Archon
Agoniser
Phantasm Grenades
Shadowfield

Always in my personal Venom spam list. At lower points, Agonisers become Venom Blades.

110 point Budget
Archon
Venom Blade
Blaster
Shadowfield

5 2+ poison attacks is nothing to laugh at, especially when he's holding a blaster. This is my WWP carrier archon too.

120 point CC monst- HOW MANY POWER WEAPONS?
Archon
Djin Blade
Combat Drugs
Soul Trap
Clone Field

Runs with 3 shardnets, either 15 wyches in a portal, or 9 bloodbrides in a raider. Shardnets mean djin blade rebellions can be stopped by the clone field. 7 Attacks on the charge, easily capable of reaching S4 on the charge, S5 with some luck. Oh, and then there's a SOUL TRAP. The math:

S3 base
*2 for Soul-Trap
Grave Lotus +1 S
Furious Charge +1 S

Please Excuse My Dear Archon Sir

S8 on the charge. Painbringer instead? S7 re-rollable. Adrenalight? 8 S6 attacks. No armor. Nothing. What needs this much killy? Large blobs, Storm Shield terminators, Tyranid MCs, anything with too many wounds and an invuln worse than their armor. Again, like the huskblade, you probably don't need it, but this one could serve some use that can't be found elsewhere, and for cheaper.

---

Have fun. Show me some combos you like. Have you used the Electrocorrosive whip in a serious game?
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Kinnay
Wych
Kinnay

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 06:58

I haven't read your article (yes, article) yet, but let me just say beforehand, that I'm in love with this forum because of members like you. It is astonishing how many useful and well-written advice is given in the Dark City, compared with other Warhammer 40k forums.
Keep it coming!

Edit:
Yay, 100th post! Razz

Edit 2:

Okay, read it. Very nice! I actually might try the Mindphase Gauntlet on a Haemonculus. Never really thought about it, but it does make sense! Those one or two Venom Blade wounds that mine would normally produce don't really matter anyways and with the gauntlet he becomes a real supporter.

Same with the Archon - I didn't realize that the Clone Field could negate Djinn Blade wounds! Awesome! And actually your 'OMG HOW MANY ATTACKS' Archon would have 8 attacks on the charge before drugs. 4 base, +1 for 2 CCW, +1 for the charge, +2 for the Djinn Blade. With the drugs he could have a whopping 9 attacks S7 on the charge!

Hmm, but why don't you like the Husk Blade? I never did the math, but I think 6 attacks S3 (auto-kill) vs. 6 attacks (4+ wound) is kind of even, when fighting an IC/MC. only one six to wound and the target is gone! And the Husk Blade is far more terrifying. Sure, against units the Agonizer is better, but you would change focus anyway. The Archon would become an IC/MC hunter, maybe with Incubi, who take care of the enemy escort.

And I would never leave home without Combat Drugs! I wouldn't call them situational, everything helps!

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Nomic
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 08:21

Is Scizzorhand really much better than a Venomblade? I did some quick math and it seems to me that they are about equal. A Venomblade Haemonculus has 3 attacks that wound on 2+, while the Scizzrohand one has 4 that wound on 3+. The difference in the wounds inflicted is very small, enough for me to consider Scizzorhand one of the worst upgrades in the book (as you pay 3 times the cost of a Venomblade for nearly no benefit).

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Gobsmakked
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Gobsmakked

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 11:11

I am currently running 1500 pts with two Succubi, a) because I want to, b) they are quite cheap, and c) because I always have a few wyches in my list and these obviously fit like a glove with them.

One has Hydra Gauntlets, and it really is quite funny how often I roll a 5 or 6 with them. "Let's see here, that's 5 attacks on the charge, plus, ....... hmmmmmm ...... ooooh, would you look at that!"

The other has two - yes, two - Venom Blades. Six 2+ poison attacks on the charge is quite funny. She took out two Daemon Princes and a Lord of Change recently by herself, in 1-1/2 turns!

I don't care about mathhammer at all, these two are a blast to use, real shock value and lots o' fun.
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Tiri Rana
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Tiri Rana

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 13:49

Just my two cents, but I think Mindphase gauntlet and Electrocorrosive Whip aren't worth their points, the mindphase gauntlet looks good on paper, but in my games I always had the problem, that a Haemonculus is just not good enough to harm enemys that are intersting, because they are either to strong, or to fast. And Strength and Leadership tests are not the best way to harm MCs or ICs. Once in a while it will come to bear, but I'd rather spare the points for something more usefull. The Electrocorrosive Whip is good, as the effect is automatic and requires no test, but it is as expensive as an Agoniser, that I appreciate more, but I think even the agoniser is very expensive.

The huskblade is definitely the best CC weapon we have, but it is super expensive and I'd never take it on my only HQ, and only on my second, when he's a dedicated MC/IC hunter.

Shattershard and Liquifier are two things of wargear I never leave home without.

In regard of Scissorhands I have to second nomic, it is just to expenssive, as it gives more attacks, but wounds worse than a venom blade and I didn't do the math, but even if it is slightly better, I don't think that's worth 10 points.

P.S.:
@Gobsmakked
Excuse me, if I missed something, but is 2 venom blades not a waste of points? Effectively you pay five points to loose the possibility to shoot and gain no benefit.

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I must rule with eye and claw — as the hawk among lesser birds.
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xzandrate
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xzandrate

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 16:28

Yup, sounds to me like someone is playing them as the old poisoned weapons.

Because they are a 'special weapon' as indicated in the main book, and not a powerfist, thunderhammer, or lightning claw, a poison weapon + pistol/CCW grants +1 attack. No need for 2 unless you are just spending extra points or being fluffy.
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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 17:06

My most common choice is a haemonculus with agoniser and liquifer gun and if im running an archon is agoniser,blast pistol,ghostplate and the 2+ invuln shield i forget its name. Point for point I think the agoniser is are best choice. IMO instant kill weapons are to expensive and not worth it because lets be honest how many multi wound models are in any single army.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 17:20

@Tiri Rana wrote:
P.S.:
@Gobsmakked
Excuse me, if I missed something, but is 2 venom blades not a waste of points? Effectively you pay five points to loose the possibility to shoot and gain no benefit.

Some will see it as a waste of points, yes, but I'm not worried. I'd rather be in CC than shooting with a pistol.

@xzandrate wrote:
Because they are a 'special weapon' as indicated in the main book, and not a powerfist, thunderhammer, or lightning claw, a poison weapon + pistol/CCW grants +1 attack. No need for 2 unless you are just spending extra points or being fluffy.

Pretty much just being fluffy, but I did also want that extra attack to be poison as well.
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Shadows Revenge
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Shadows Revenge

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 17:49

@Judgex83 wrote:
My most common choice is a haemonculus with agoniser and liquifer gun and if im running an archon is agoniser,blast pistol,ghostplate and the 2+ invuln shield i forget its name. Point for point I think the agoniser is are best choice. IMO instant kill weapons are to expensive and not worth it because lets be honest how many multi wound models are in any single army.

I personally find an Agoniser a point sink on a regular hamie. He cant surivive combat, and hits at the same time as marines, and Most ICs are going first against him, even with FC. Now Haemie Ancients can get away with it, but that still pushing it.

@Gobsmakked wrote:
@xzandrate wrote:
Because they are a 'special weapon' as indicated in the main book, and not a powerfist, thunderhammer, or lightning claw, a poison weapon + pistol/CCW grants +1 attack. No need for 2 unless you are just spending extra points or being fluffy.



Pretty much just being fluffy, but I did also want that extra attack to be poison as well.

YOu dont need it for your extra attack to be poison, read the BRB for how 1 special weapon and 1 CCW works
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Thor665
Archon
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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 18:37

@Gobsmakked wrote:
Pretty much just being fluffy, but I did also want that extra attack to be poison as well.
As has been said - but to clarify;

2 Venom Blades = Archon base 4 attacks + 1 for extra weapon - all poison wound on 2+
1 Venom Blade + 1 Splinter pistol = Archon base 4 attacks + 1 for extra weapon - all poison wound on 2+ +a pistol shot if you want to shoot.

You're thinking the old dex when this wasn't allowed - I did the same thing last week.
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 21:33

Funnily enough, I never played with the old 'dex Very Happy I guess that I just interpreted the rule book differently:

[quote]"Two of the same Special Weapon [which is Poisoned Weapons] - These models gain one additional attack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties." [unquote] p. 42

That seemed pretty clear to me at the time.

It doesn't matter, I can change it after this weekend's tournie, for which my list is already locked in. I'm not that good a player that it would a jot of difference anyway.
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Tiri Rana
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Tiri Rana

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 23:17

BRB p.42 wrote:

A normal and a special weapon
These models gain one additional attack. All of their
attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the
special weapon’s bonuses.

Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are
an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder
hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to
a model equipped with one of these weapons.

The paragraph you quoted is right and true, but the next one (see above) is the one important here. 5 points alone won't make a difference, but they may add up eventually.

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Gobsmakked
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Gobsmakked

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 23:58

OK, thanks very much Tiri. That never really registered, guess I was too focused on the other situation which I thought applied. You can probably tell that I don't actually play that much.

Guess I will have to strap a holster back on her Very Happy

Cheers.
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asdrubal vect
Slave
asdrubal vect

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PostSubject: Re: HQ choices   HQ choices I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 17:53

I always take vect in a 1850+ lists. him with 9 dual ccw trueborn. Suck my 40+ attacks. Oh yeah, and this is a dual wwp list. first turn drop around 18 inches apart around 10 inches from the enemy.
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