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 Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?

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Caspaar
Kabalite Warrior
Caspaar

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PostSubject: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 13:45

Hey everyone,
Ive been lurking this forum for quite a while. I recently decided to give 40k another try. I always loved the coven and would really like to field a mainly coven army. Problem is, my mate who brought me back is a pretty decent player and builds list mostly to win.

So, the Coven supplement has some really good formations, but is a competetive Coven army viable?
My guess was to take regular Dark Eldar as second detachement for harpies (fluff and anti armour) and some Blaster kabalites in venoms, maybe ravagers.

What are your ideas? I know Im fighting an uphill battle, but I always liked the idea of mixing fluff with competetive play.

Cheers
Caspaar
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Klaivex Charondyr
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 16:02

I would even argue that coven is the "to go"for a competitive army.

Grotesqerie and Dark Artisan are very powerful formations to build your army around.
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Unholyllama
Sybarite
Unholyllama

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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 16:55

I'm personally, leaning towards a coven-heavy force myself - or at least a core of Coven models. The problem with going 100% pure Coven is the lack of anti-tank and anti-flyer. Using Grotesques, Wracks, and Talos have been a solid foundation; however, I need something to pop transports and address a few flyers.

If we get a secondary supplement for Wyches or Kabal that would allow me to bring a formation of them to augment my coven, I would be a happy archon.
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 16:59

@Unholyllama wrote:


If we get a secondary supplement for Wyches or Kabal that would allow me to bring a formation of them to augment my coven, I would be a happy archon.

Actually...that makes you a happy Haemonculus Smile
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Caspaar
Kabalite Warrior
Caspaar

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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 17:00

Yeah, exactly my thoughts unholyllama. The coven supp is great, but I fear against fast and/or heavy armoured opponents we will have a pretty hard time.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 17:36

A mostly Covent army is very possible to be competitive just remember to take the Anti-armor like our scourges and our fliers.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 17:45

I see them competing with some armies, but i dont see them winning 1st place. They cant take on every popular army, have no answer to Knights, air forces and mass vehicles.

Covenites essentially has boats with mid power anti-infantry assault troops, expensive boats with shock assault troops that are able to dent armor, slow walking monster creatures walking the board, squishy mediocre assault characters that buffs the rest.

However powerfull monsters seem, walking monters doesnt work now, ask Tyranids. No broods of melee Carnifex ruling the tournaments board now, and for a reason. Sure there are some potential there with units like 5 Talosi with Twin-Linked Haywire Blasters, but any mobile enough army will just ignore it while it destroys 1 target a turn.

Not that allround force, even if all the participants get some buffs and some monters are teleported in.

Its an assault army with very close range AI shooting. To play an assault army in 7th requires some really good plan with what you will be trying to do with. Covenites will not be an army which kills all the opposition and take points.

To win you will have to use all the cruthces GW gave you - like better first blood formation, VP for dead haemunculi, vp for Talos killing at least someone etc...that requires a lot of thought.

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darkgear
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:01

Getting a competitive Coven list is a hard proposition which I'm also struggling with.

Right from the start, looking at what units we can select for a Coven list the biggest issue (depending on your local meta) is that there are no possible counters to anti-air units at all in a pure Coven list. If you face a lot of flyers in your area, then you must bring an extra detachment for anti-air.

Also, don't even think of the Carnival of Pain. This unit weighs in at roughly 2100 points without any upgrades and no anti-air capabilities. It's a very fun formation for friendly games but there's no way to shoehorn it into a tournament setting, sadly.

So now to focus on your question of competitiveness, if you need some anti-air you have 2 options.

For 260 points of Dark Eldar, you get an Archon, Kabalites, Bomber (not counting upgrades).
For 281 points of Eldar | Autarch, jetbikes and Crimson Hunter (not counting upgrades)

With Dark Eldar I prefer the bomber to the fighter because S9 lances do help a lot against AV12 flyers.
For a mere 25 points in the Eldar Detachment you turn your Hunter into an Exarch with Night vision, making him a much better platform than whatever the Dark kin have, sadly.

Allying with Eldar also opens up the possibility of bringing in Outflanking War Walkers for solid back field shenanigans that synergise very well with at least 3 of the Coven formations, namely the Grotesquerie, the Dark Artisan and the Scalpel Squadron. Incidentally these are only 3 formations that I see as worthwhile for a tournament, with the Scalpel squad being at the bottom.

What these formations allow us to do however, especially if we have an allied Autarch or a comm relay for reserve manipulation, is to very early on apply serious pressure to the enemy's deployment zone.

The Scalpel Squadron's application is a bit finicky as it quite fragile and has no true anti-armour power whatsoever but it's great for it's intended purpose, taking out artillery or back-field campers such as Biovores, Orc grots in a building or other big fragile blobs that love to hide on objectives. With 2 Ossefactors and 4 Splinter Cannons you can expect to do more than just moderate damage. At least both those weapons have enough range that you can place yourself in such a way that you won't be charged in the following turn but you still have to mentally prepare yourself that this is a throw-away unit. That being said, it is a very expensive anti-infantry bomb. In games of 1500 points or less, your points are much better spent elsewhere.

The Dark Artisan has amazing potential to truly ruin somebody's day. Equip your Haemonculus with a WWP, Scissorhands and the Doll, land close to the enemy or protect your own backfield. Whichever way you field this unit you will enjoy yourself.

As for the Grotesquerie, keep in mind that the formation does not restrict you from taking 2 Raiders. If you can find the points, embark everyone in their own vehicle, and go make friends. For maximum fun, you should embark an IC from the Dark Eldar book so you can bring the Armour of Misery with this blob, thus creating a nice -3 leadership bubble wherever you go.

Whichever way you slice it, the Coven Detachment is not cheap. If you take all 3 formations discussed above you're looking at spending a minimum of 1230 points or 1000 points if you drop the Scalpel Squadron. This leaves you with 500 to 750 points to spend on allies and upgrades to answer what your local meta would throw your way in terms of vehicles and flyers.

In order to be more specific with advice could you fill in a few blanks first:

What points level are tournaments in your area?
What do people typically field in your area (foot lists, parking lots, flyer spam, etc.)?
What's your opinion or desire regarding allies?
What models do you have?
What is a list you're thinking of using?
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:17

Quote :

Whichever way you slice it, the Coven Detachment is not cheap.

In every way that is. =) If the last codex has remark that it is for true connoiseur, then a covenite detachment is for a true wealthy aristocrate.

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barenone
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:54

do the coven even need to worry about fliers? high toughness and fnb..... just ignore them lol. then again there are some fliers i never played against other then necrons and imperial so idk.
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The Red King
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 19:11

Maybe I'm crazy but I was thinking after reading about the repugnomancers in the coven supplement that some converted nurgle demons can fit fluff in a pure coven list.

I mean it describes a while menagerie of different flesh constructs we never actually see. A soul grinder makes perfect anti air while being a wonderful opportunity for conversion.

I don't know if that satisfies your no allies rule, probably not, but if you just run it as a flesh construct (after some proper converting) then it's technically not an ally. Just like orkifying a leman russ.

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darkgear
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 19:13

@ Azdubruel:
Quote :
then a covenite detachment is for a true wealthy aristocrate.

When you look at the cost of multiple Talos and Grots (barring Rat Ogre conversions of course) fielding a Coven list almost truly is for the wealthy Aristocrat. lol

@Barenone wrote:
just ignore them lol

It all depends on the amount and the type of flyers. Multiple Helldrakes and Vendettas must be dealth with but a single Necron Flyer can easily be ignored as long as your troops are in cover. The Scythes, in my experience, are as underwhelming as gunboats as they are good as transports.
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daxxglax
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 19:26

@barenone wrote:
do the coven even need to worry about fliers? high toughness and fnb..... just ignore them lol. then again there are some fliers i never played against other then necrons and imperial so idk.

Well, there's the CSM's Heldrakes for one, with their S6 AP3 Torrent flamers. FNP helps, but having an untouchable enemy unit freely wreaking havoc from above is not an ideal situation (though Necron fliers tend to be at the bottom of the flier threat-list)
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Caspaar
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Caspaar

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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 20:30

Woah, thanks for all the replies!!!

I agree with most of you people that coven lacks anti-armour and anti-air. A few Taloi wont be a big threat to enemy tanks, because they're slow....really slow. Thats why I thought about taking scourges, which still leaves us really vulnerable against fliers.

When I see the_burning_eye's lists (which I really like btw) I somehow doubt that coven is better (more competetive) than regular DE.

To answer your questions darkgear:

What points level are tournaments in your area?
> mostly small-ish: From 1250-1750 points

What do people typically field in your area (foot lists, parking lots, flyer spam, etc.)?
> I'm not that familiar with my regional meta, but fliers arent that common (luckily), but there are a few nasty Tau-players

What's your opinion or desire regarding allies?
> I really hate the ideas of allies (except for cool fluff reasons), so I'd only allie another DE detachement

What models do you have?
> Thats the issue, I'm building my Coven right now, so I'm thinking about what units to buy.

What is a list you're thinking of using?
> See the above. I dont wanna field THAT many Grots, because I have to convert them (not that I dont like converting, but it simply takes a lot of time)

Cheers and thanks for all the advice!
Caspaar
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darkgear
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 18 2014, 17:26

At 1250 points, I would not play a Coven list as the unit costs are really not conducive to making a competitive list that would fit my play style and my local meta. Building for a purely all-comers perspective, I would see it as nothing more than a boosted Monstrous Creature delivery system for the Dark Artisan.

The core of the list would include:

This group would be taken twice
Haemonculus | Scissorhand
Wracks Squad | 5 Wracks, Ossefactor
Raider | Dark Lance, Chain snares

Dark Artisan Formation
Haemonculus | WWP, Scissorhand, Syndriq's Pump
Talos | Chain Flails, TLHB
Cronos | Spirit Probe

This takes up to 795 points.

Archon | Blaster

Trueborne | 5, 2 Dark Lances

Kabalites | Blaster
Venom | Splinter Cannon, Chain snares

Razorwing Fighter | 2 Dark Lances, Splinter cannon, Monoscythe missiles

The Archon would join the Wracks and Haemonculus in one of the Raider.
The Trueborne hang back and do some Dark Lance sniping.
The rest of the units do their usual.

Again for the record, I would not play a 1250 point Coven list in a competitive environment but if I did, this is the most likely shape it would have.

Pondering other lists for the 1500 and 1750.
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PostSubject: Re: Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible?   Is a competetive (mostly) Coven-army possible? I_icon_minitime

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