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Mth
Hellion
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PostSubject: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 18:52

Ok I've seen this i don't know hat to think. I have 10 Incubi i would like to run them in a list. 2 squads in venoms killing targets. I understand that they don't have Grenades. But are they still good at killing high priority targets? Are they still good?
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KiriONE
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 19:18

The grenades thing is the biggest issue. In the old codex bringing an Archon helped since he has Plasma grenades, but with the Archon not being the greatest of entries anymore that would make for the most expensive assault grenades ever. Drazhar confusingly despite being a MASTER of blades still doesn't know how to attack at initiative despite having the wherewithal to fleet his way into cover.

2 Incubi in Venoms isn't bad at all, after all you've got 2 venoms pumping out SC shots. As long as you can block LOS [aka survive] on your approach and then have your Incubi jump out and assault in open terrain they are fine, they'll mulch up just about anything that isn't T5 or higher.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 19:29

remember that, even at initiative, you can only reasonably expect to kill 1 MEQ per turn, per incubi, on the charge. So 5 incubi will kill 5 marines on the charge on average. You can reasonably expect to be able to charge twice in a game, for that 2nd charge you should have furious charge up (turn 4 or 5) so you'll be killing more marines... if you've survived.

So far my incubi have tripped over a downed raider & been massacred by a DA chaplain with his fancy AP3 mace; massacred a tactical squad, who held, thus pinning me in place for an ironclad to counter-charge (t5, so fearless.... & couldn't run away...); and failed horribly to put wounds on a crusader squad - 5 incubi + klaivex + aggy arcon charge, roll up +3 attacks from klaivex rampage, and kill a TOTAL of 3 models....

I'd love to use incubi as the models are fantastic & I love the idea.... however in a pure competitive style DE army, I would suggest that like almost all of the combat-oriented units, incubi should stay on the shelf.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 20:05

The fact that Incubi are missing grenades is not an issue. Incubi are one of the best, if not THE best assault unit in the game. And they dont need nades for it. We have superfast vehicles which can get us a charge from any angle and there is no area terrain anymore. Devs are hiding behind barricade? So what? Dont charge them up front! :-)

They still do struggle against cleverly played Termies with nasty HQ.

Dont forget the new Klaivex. In the latter turns he gets fearless and is still capable of erasing a MEQ combat squad by himself... :-) I use them as 2x5 incl. Klaivex without Demiklaive in Raider with Sails and NS. Ideal for clearing Devastator Squads. Even had some LOLz with Centurions.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 23:40

I use 5 incubi with a klaivex in a raider with an autarch with soulshrive and banshee mask. Just killy enough and by the end of the first combat the autarch is usually S6-7, sometimes 8 if I role well!
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 00:58

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I use 5 incubi with a klaivex in a raider with an autarch with soulshrive and banshee mask. Just killy enough and by the end of the first combat the autarch is usually S6-7, sometimes 8 if I role well!

Autarchs with Banshee Masks are the new Archons with PGLs, while it doesn't let you strike first it lets you strike at the same step so at least you don't lose attacks if from your opponent having a higher iniative
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 01:15

@Larndorn wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I use 5 incubi with a klaivex in a raider with an autarch with soulshrive and banshee mask. Just killy enough and by the end of the first combat the autarch is usually S6-7, sometimes 8 if I role well!

Autarchs with Banshee Masks are the new Archons with PGLs, while it doesn't let you strike first it lets you strike at the same step so at least you don't lose attacks if from your opponent having a higher iniative

Yep! And the autarch challenges out powerfists and helps with reserves AND is much cheaper than the SF HB PGL st Archon of last book. Autarch is 105 for my loadout. Archon with that loadout was around 160.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 02:57

OP- I say run them for at least 20 games, try some different configs, then make your judgement. Thats usually what I do with a unit I want test data on.

I personally love my incubi. Ive tried many configurations but like many people I initially shelved them for other things. Then on a whim I brought them back but changed my approach to using them. Ive now ran mine in around 50ish games straight. They've earned their paint.

Incubi are good even on our local terrain dense boards and even without grenades because assault units don't often spend their time hunkered down in cover for the same reasons ours don't.

Personally my incubi skirt the edges hunting troops and static shooting units or performing counter assasult, and they do very well although they will take casualties. I've killed everything from full tac squads to multiple chariots to GKs to WG terminators with arjac and screamers and manz among other things. Also lost em once to some gretchin.. it happens.

Heres the main issues with Incubi I've encountered:

-At high end competitive play other units do it better, or at least easier.
-They don't impact the game immediately. Usually turns 2-3.
-Shooting not combat is what really hurts incubi, but that can be said for most of our units generally, and grenades doesn't help that.

That said they can often dig units out of cover much better than shooting can and can repeat the process for little investment freeing up your shooters to go after other targets.

At the end of the day they may not be the best unit we have but they are still a murderously killy assault/counter assault unit you can field for as low as 115 pts WITH an assault vehicle, +10 for rampage. Thats good. Plus they survive explosions much better than any other units we can embark for that cost. Try em out but have a plan and a target and don't go after big game if you can help it or at least until they've achieved FNP.
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Bleaksoul Brethren
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 06:39

Why not bring a Succubus with them? Succubus has a plasma grenade (assault grenade) and they can get an ap2 weapon and if you really want the armor of misery. I tend to run 2, 4 incubi and a Succubus in a venom and they wreck havoc (total cost is 500). They shouldn't charge the awesome cc squads like command squads or terminators with storm shields but they will rip up most other things including some monstrous creatures, large blobs of cheap units (with another unit soaking up overwatch), and most space marine squads.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 07:10

Quote :
and there is no area terrain anymore.
I am obviously missing something here. What does this mean? From what I have seen of the rules there are all sorts of area terrain... I do not discount that I am missing something. It happens a lot with me.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 07:26

@Norrin wrote:
Quote :
and there is no area terrain anymore.
I am obviously missing something here.  What does this mean?  From what I have seen of the rules there are all sorts of area terrain... I do not discount that I am missing something.  It happens a lot with me.

It's a bit of a red herring really. Whilst the term 'area terrain' is no longer used in 7e, the simple fact is that pretty much every kind of terrain is Difficult. Ruins, Battlefield Debris and every specific Citadel Scenery kit described in the Appendix are Difficult (or Dangerous) Terrain and it is this that causes the Initiative penalty when charging.

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 10:17

I'm planning on using them as a hammer unit. Wyches lock a target up in CC, to kill them off Incubi can join in a turn later at their initiative.
With a Spirit Probe nearby, they will be pretty survivable, even for just T3.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 11:54

Glad to see some positivity here. I definitely think Incubi are still very good. As stated above an Autarch with Banshee Mask and a Soulshrive is what these guys need. Furthermore an Archon with SF to tank on his 2++ helps even more. They are definitely a finesse unit but they are super deadly to infantry and their ability to not only eliminate units, but pull them out of the shooting phase (and last turn movement phase for objective grabbing) is very important especially considering how fragile DE are.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 11:57

To echo some of Brom's wise words (though from much fewer games experience), I've had the greatest success with Incubi when running them as counter assault troops. This is especially the case if playing a relatively shooty army that makes the opponent want to close the distance; as they do they tend to string out, and the Incubi can more easily find a fair (ie skewed completely in my direction) fight.

Alternatively, when played in a more aggressive army, I have had some luck using them to tie down nasty shooting units for a turn or two until the relief force arrived.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 12:49

Yeah Incubi are still good. Good bodyguards to. Grenades is something I don't worry about too much, you can usually maneuver around cover with the transports. I have torn up so much with my humble 5 Incubi that even my friends who I play regularly treat them with respect and awe.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 12:59

Helps to place the objectives you get in the open too, means either your opponent has to weather full shooting and incubi etc or sit in cover and not claim them.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 13:20


Here is the thing though- we need always compare one unit to another. Now assuming we take a cc archon ...

You can take 4 Incubi klaivwex in a venom for 155
You can take 3 Ssylth 1 Medusae in a venom for 165

So points wise we are pretty close. Both will wreck face in cc becuase both will have a litted out archon. Majority toughness on the court unit is very good. Both are xcellent at pretty much the same task. One has an ignore cover flamer. Say what what you will - I like the flamer. I used the incubi a few times. I'm now thinking the court might be a bit better.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 14:45

The above units have different roles as defined by their Ap, however. The second unit is relying on weight of wounds to get through armour (12 S5 Ap- + Archon + Medusae & in shooting: 13 P(4+) + Template)

While the Incubi are can-openers with 9+D3 S4 Ap2 + Archon (or more likely Succubus with Glaive). Wanting to go after T4 or less with 2-3+ armour.

Neither have grenades, both have Fleet. So if you want a more tougher, more versatile unit - go the Court; if you want a specialised unit - go the Incubi.

Or at least that's how I compare those two.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 17:49

I do like the idea of putting a Succubus with them, and she does come with the vaunted grenade.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:10

In the current meta I can hardly see a place for them.
Most of the AR 2+ threats come from Stormshield/Hammer Terminators. Incubi dont want to fight that. 3++ is hard to get over, S8 ignores Fnp and the 3+ armor.
So they cant take powerful melee units head on. they have to focus on "high value non melee units". And we have dozends of weapons for this job already.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:27

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
Why not bring a Succubus with them? Succubus has a plasma grenade (assault grenade) and they can get an ap2 weapon and if you really want the armor of misery.

This makes no difference to the Incubi themselves though, only affects the Succubus' Initiative, not the unit she joins.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:51

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
In the current meta I can hardly see a place for them.
Most of the AR 2+ threats come from Stormshield/Hammer Terminators. Incubi dont want to fight that. 3++ is hard to get over, S8 ignores Fnp and the 3+ armor.
So they cant take powerful melee units head on. they have to focus on "high value non melee units". And we have dozends of weapons for this job already.
You can't distill a unit down to whether or not they can tackle hammernators 'head on'. Nothing wants to do that. AP 2 is a bonus to carving 3+. Its the threat and the potential, it doesn't make 2+ the primary target.

At thread- how about shrouded campers or devs or crons or deep striking suits or even mega nobz and SW terminators or any of the other plethora of units that incubi can wreck that would take an inordinate amount of shooting to deal with. These are things that vacuum type analysis falls flat on.

Just like grots from the previous book I feel that incubi often get mislabeled by too much theory hammer and not enough actual game time. They aren't splinter cannons but they are far from unusable.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 18:58

Quote :
Why not bring a Succubus with them? Succubus has a plasma grenade (assault grenade) and they can get an ap2 weapon and if you really want the armor of misery.
The Archon has plasmagrenades too, but the AP2 weapons is a point.
Currently i tend to run the archon seperatly to the incubi. Letting him hunt targits with 3+ and incubi targets with 2+ so succubus would fit more in the group
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 19:05

@Brom wrote:
@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
In the current meta I can hardly see a place for them.
Most of the AR 2+ threats come from Stormshield/Hammer Terminators. Incubi dont want to fight that. 3++ is hard to get over, S8 ignores Fnp and the 3+ armor.
So they cant take powerful melee units head on. they have to focus on "high value non melee units". And we have dozends of weapons for this job already.
You can't distill a unit down to whether or not they can tackle hammernators 'head on'. Nothing wants to do that. AP 2 is a bonus to carving 3+. Its the threat and the potential, it doesn't make 2+ the primary target.

At thread- how about shrouded campers or devs or crons or deep striking suits or even mega nobz and SW terminators or any of the other plethora of units that incubi can wreck that would take an inordinate amount of shooting to deal with. These are things that vacuum type analysis falls flat on.

Just like grots from the previous book I feel that incubi often get mislabeled by too much theory hammer and not enough actual game time. They aren't splinter cannons but they are far from unusable.

No you can not.
But why paying for AP2 if you wont use it anyways? The main problem here is: there is only a very few things (if any) that is better and safer dealt with Incubi than with Splinter Cannons.
3 Incubi are already the price of a Venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Incubi still viable: good?   Are Incubi still viable: good? I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 17 2014, 19:22

I think effective use of Incubi would be based on play style and keeping them in reserves till late game. Take out all of the heavy weaponry and deepstrike a raider or venom then next turn have them charge your opponent. The volume of attacks is usually so great that they can wipe out a squad of terminators of course depending on how many terminators your opponent brings and how many Incubi you bring because they are WS 5-6. The Klaivex now has Rampage adding more wounds to that pool.

Incubi are amongst my favorite unit/lore unit along with reaver jetbikes, harlequin (not in codex anymore), and scourges but I dont use Incubi very often other than in specific lists because they dont synergize with my list as well as other units do.

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