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teknistmajjan
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bosch455
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 19:55

I took this list to my second tournament with DE last weekend. It's basic stuff all comers list. Archon rides with incubi, haemy with wyches. I did okayish with victory against daemons on objectives, tabled mixed BA in killpoints but lost terribly to Coatez mech GK. Would have been tabled but time ran out saving me. Any comments or advice especially in that terrible matchup? His list was basically 6 psyHB Razors covering 3 psyflemen Dreads with maxed purifiers, psycannons and such. I lost the roll to go first and just couldn't handle the firepower from his Razors/Dreads.


Dark Eldar 2000

HQ: 175

1x Archon 60
- Agonizer,Clone field, PGL 65
1x Haemonculus 50

Troops: 753

9x Wyches 90
- 1x Shardnet and Impaler 10
- Hecatrix, Agonizer 30
- Haywire Grenades 18
Raider, N. Shields 70

10x Kabalite Warriors 90
- Splinter Cannon 10
Raider 60
- Splinter Racks,N.Shields 20

5x Kabalite Warriors 45
- Blaster 15
Venom 55
- 2x S.Cannon,N. Shields 20

10x Wracks 100
- 2x Liquifier Gun 20
- Acothyst, Agonizer 30
Raider, N. Shields 70

Elites: 567

6x Incubi 132
Raider, N. Shields 70

5x Kabalite Trueborn 60
- 4x Blaster 60
Venom 55
- 2x S.Cannon,N. Shields 20

5x Kabalite Trueborn 60
- 2x Splinter Cannon 20
- 3x Splinter Carbine 15
Venom 55
- 2x S.Cannon,N. Shields 20

Fast Attack: 156

6x Reavers 132
- 2x Heat Lance 24

Heavy Support: 345

1x Ravager, Flickerfield 115
1x Ravager, Flickerfield 115
1x Ravager, Flickerfield 115

Total: 1996
Killpoints: 20

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teknistmajjan
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17 2011, 20:01

Hey. I suppose there is not much to talk about here exept a few small pointers. Why use 5 trueborns when you only can bring 4 blasters? You can save points there. The other thing is the second trueborn squad with shardcarbines and splinter cannons. Trueborns is basicly ment to use blasters, drop them 4 and give the 4 blasters insteed and they will be of much more use. You have enough anti infantry fire from the venoms, if you run boats they should be handling that problem.

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PreacherOfDeath
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 04:58

Shardnets increase in effectivness exponentially the more you have. Razorflails or Gauntlet will serve you better. Do 9 haywires really help?

Splinter racks don't affect the cannon. 5 dudes in a venom with blaster is over 54 points cheaper, and gives more or less the same effect.

Why does the acothyst need an agonizer? He loses an attack for a total of 3 on the charge, resulting in less than 1 wound average, despite ignoring armor. I don't know about acothyst, more later.

What's up with the second trueborn squad? Redundancy is good. The first one dies? Hey, the second does the same thing. teknistmajjan has a point, but it's not that they need blasters - it's that they need anti-tank and 2-3 matching squads.

You have too many vehicle upgrades, and on the wrong vehicles. Ravagers are sitting 36" away in cover, getting 4+ from everything but their current target. That's points wasted on a worse save. Night shields would be better.

Night shields increase distance away by 6"... which is kind of pointless on transports that will be in the thick of things. What do you do with the points you save? Another raider, for the wracks who are split into two squads of 5, no acothyst.

10 wracks is certainly deadly. But who do you need to kill that bad with one unit? The bogeyman? You ARE the bogeyman. 5 men with a liquifier in 2 raiders don't lose out on effectiveness, and can be in 2 places instead of one.

Pretty good otherwise, way to go on your success! Good luck, I wish you many more.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 14:55

HQ: I personally dont like the clone field. To me its a waste of points, just use the Shadowfield, it more relaible overall.

Is the Haemie going with the wyches??? rememeber they lose fleet, and if you are just using him stock, he is another KP just waiting to happen. Try and give him atleast a liquifier

Troops: Im opposite of Preacher and find that the shardnet works best on regular wyches, and all it needs to do is mosy up to that sargent and watch that one PF attack fail. I also like haywires, so i say keep them.

try and add a blaster to your warrior squads, its not about duality, but just in case you need to shoot that tank, also its better than your rifle when shooting at MEQ.

Id drop the Acothyst, or atleast the Agoniser he is carrying. Like was said you lose an attack with it, and you are already drowning people in poison attacks, its normally not needed

Ok, Ill talk about NS here. I like them, alot. The problem is everyone thinks they are made to allow you to outrange long range guns. The problem is long range guns are 48', meaning they can, but if you want to shoot your DL or SC, you have to be in their range. What NS really shine at is keeping you out of double tap range, as well as the stray assault cannon shot. That being said, I take them after flickerfields, which are way better in any aspect. a 33% chance to dodge that 1 lascannon shot is an amazing ability.

Yes, you can use Trueborn as AI, but I think you lack AT. You are better with another set of Blasterborn.

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bosch455
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 17:26

Thanks for all the replys.

I'll start with my troop choises. Wyches really need that pain token from the get go and haemy is there just for that. He'll stay within the raider after wyches disembark. I chose S&I because it helps tarpit. In the game vs. daemons wyches worked wonders against a daemon prince and the S&I along with Dodge shined there. Never had the chance to try the haywires but with only one unit of wyches I wanted them to be able to perform in different roles. Not really sure if it's best use of points but even so it's only 18.

Wracks never really got the chance to perform as an assaut unit. When they were in the position to assaut either incubi were already on the job or the opposing unit was too much to handle for them. In truth the acothyst was the biggest waste of points on the entire list. Double Liquifiers however literally lit up the sanquinary guard in the BA match. I was really impressed with them. I like the idea of splitting that group but how much hurt does 5 wracks with liquifier pack when needed?

Pure splinterfire kabalites also were a bit dissapointing and could use that blaster. The need for AT was quite apparent in the GK matchup so given time I'll look to add more blasters to the list. Both in kabalites and trueborn. It was my first game against GK's and Fortitude really took me by suprise. I initially planned packing more AT with haywire blaster Scourges but I quess with Fortitude that's out of the window. Damn Matt Ward..

The NS FF debate is up to personal prefence and I don't have enought games to have a clear opinion. I don't think either were extremely effective during those games and neither gave me any real protection against psyammo heavy bolters and autocannons. NS were extremely effective against deamons and could have been against GK's had I somehow silenced his Razors and Dreads.
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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 18:19

PreacherOfDeath wrote:
Shardnets increase in effectivness exponentially the more you have. Razorflails or Gauntlet will serve you better. Do 9 haywires really help?

I disagree. Wych Weapons are my absolute last choice. I prefer more wyches. I get your argument for them, the shardnets, but my preference is not to have them.

haywires are the bomb. I use them all the time and are one of my wyches are my most successful tank hunting units. I put haywire on almost everything I can.

I don't really get the argument against but....


Splinter racks don't affect the cannon. 5 dudes in a venom with blaster is over 54 points cheaper, and gives more or less the same effect.

True that

Why does the acothyst need an agonizer? He loses an attack for a total of 3 on the charge, resulting in less than 1 wound average, despite ignoring armor. I don't know about acothyst, more later.

I would go naked on these. They are brutal enough on their own. I agree POD.

What's up with the second trueborn squad? Redundancy is good. The first one dies? Hey, the second does the same thing. teknistmajjan has a point, but it's not that they need blasters - it's that they need anti-tank and 2-3 matching squads.

POD is right, but I would just add blasters. its simple and I like simple.

You have too many vehicle upgrades, and on the wrong vehicles. Ravagers are sitting 36" away in cover, getting 4+ from everything but their current target. That's points wasted on a worse save. Night shields would be better.


I disagree on the ravagers. its how I run mine.I like the venom setup. I would drop the splinter racks though.

Night shields increase distance away by 6"... which is kind of pointless on transports that will be in the thick of things. What do you do with the points you save? Another raider, for the wracks who are split into two squads of 5, no acothyst.

Yup, 2 squads of 5.

10 wracks is certainly deadly. But who do you need to kill that bad with one unit? The bogeyman? You ARE the bogeyman. 5 men with a liquifier in 2 raiders don't lose out on effectiveness, and can be in 2 places instead of one.

Pretty good otherwise, way to go on your success! Good luck, I wish you many more.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 18:49

A few of my comments,

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Troops: Im opposite of Preacher and find that the shardnet works best on regular wyches, and all it needs to do is mosey up to that sergeant and watch that one PF attack fail. I also like haywires, so i say keep them.

Agree completely – once you are trained to take special notice of where the shardnet wych and how to maneuver it to where you want it you will notice it’s benefits more readily. Of course, having two in the squad is ideal but I would still take it even it means I can take only one.

Quote :
Id drop the Acothyst, or atleast the Agoniser he is carrying. Like was said you lose an attack with it, and you are already drowning people in poison attacks, its normally not needed

If it is the only source for the agonizer then perhaps but as Shadows Revenge has mentioned most of the death is going to happen from poison attacks.

Quote :
Ok, Ill talk about NS here. I like them, alot.

I do too and your explanation is exactly right based on my experiences – not theory guessing.

This where I can tell who has tried them and who has not, once I see the oh so common, “don’t put them on transports since they are getting close to the enemy” statement I can tell that person has never tried it. I used them back in 4th edition and to this day they work all the same and for a cheaper price!

The night shields have a dramatic effect on the game and once you learn all the different enemy ranges of their weapons you can really cause some havoc in your opponents shooting phase. Yes, you have to watch where you are putting your raiders and yes, some enemy weapons are going to reach you no matter what but that is the golden part – only those weapons are going to be able to hit a raider with NS (if you are sensible enough in managing distances) and now your opponent will have re-prioritize his long range weapons. A short list of the nightshield benefits:

• Obviously, it may cause your opponent to miss outright if he guesses range wrong
• Causes medium ranged weapons to move closer as they try to get into range
• Takes away most of the rapid-fire situations and messes with melta based shots
• Will often cause the opponent to shoot at a different target that would be in range

My favorite other than the enemy totally falling short is when they move closer to get into range. It’s an art to say the least and is quite handy once you get the mechanics of it. The way I look at it, it does cause a failed shot somewhere then it has pretty much paid itself off as well as all the other NS you have taken in the list – and that is not very hard to do.

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PreacherOfDeath
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18 2011, 20:29

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
A few of my comments,

Shadows Revenge wrote:
Troops: Im opposite of Preacher and find that the shardnet works best on regular wyches, and all it needs to do is mosey up to that sergeant and watch that one PF attack fail. I also like haywires, so i say keep them.

Agree completely – once you are trained to take special notice of where the shardnet wych and how to maneuver it to where you want it you will notice it’s benefits more readily. Of course, having two in the squad is ideal but I would still take it even it means I can take only one.[/quote]

Talk about being able to tell "who has actually tried this" You've got 9-10 models in that squad. Going against MSU squads, you MUST get as many wyches in base to base as possible. There's no reason for the power fist to be in the front on an upgrade character, so you're forced to get extra close with that single shardnet, making it extra risky and causing it not to work in most assaults. It's even harder against hordes, how many boyz' will lose an attack from that one wych? does it even matter?

I take wych weapons when I have a full squad or a full raider, like in this case. Wyches aren't good at using MSU at all, another wych is ALWAYS better, and I never run wyches unless I can fill the squad or fill the transport anyway.

ShadowsRevenge, you NEVER pulled off the single shardnet on me, or any other skilled player at our local GW. How many power fist attacks have you stopped from the Mech BA? How many Celestine attacks have you denied? The craftworld guy doesn't even assault you unless he uses that goofy seer council. The guard player doesn't care about the shardnet, for obvious reasons, nor the Tau guy. You haven't run wyches against the Tau guy's deathwing.

I respect your opinions very much, so I'm not going to doubt you. So, who have you met outside the store who really fell for that? I want to see them play.

Quote :
Quote :
Ok, Ill talk about NS here. I like them, alot.

I do too and your explanation is exactly right based on my experiences – not theory guessing.

This where I can tell who has tried them and who has not, once I see the oh so common, “don’t put them on transports since they are getting close to the enemy” statement I can tell that person has never tried it. I used them back in 4th edition and to this day they work all the same and for a cheaper price!
[/quote]

Yeah, I remember all the Kwi-related forum accounts from the early 2000s, with posts dating back to the 90s. No offense, but it didn't work then.

Quote :
The night shields have a dramatic effect on the game and once you learn all the different enemy ranges of their weapons you can really cause some havoc in your opponents shooting phase.

Certainly. They are good when used correctly. Of course they don't stop Autocannons, Missiles, and Lascannons. Here are some common vehicle killers that they do affect:

Impaler Cannons: 18"
Assault Cannons: 18"
Multi-Melta: 18"
Storm Bolter (our vehicles at least, with enough rhinos): 18"
Plasma Gun: 18"
Plasma Rifle: 18"

Notice that anything with a 24" gun now needs to be in Heat Lance/Blaster range. HMMMMM! Can you think of a vehicle with 4 guys with blasters inside who might like this? I know I can.

Also, if you lose 6" of range, it means you have to be 6" closer to shoot. Getting 6" closer to a transport is easy. Getting 6" closer to a vehicle in my deployment zone is NOT.

Meltaguns have no problem getting into half range, as you know. They don't need an extra d6 to kill you. Razz

Quote :
Obviously, it may cause your opponent to miss outright if he guesses range wrong

Bad players are bad players, without night shields. If they're off by less than half an inch, they may not be a bad player, but it's still not the Night Shield's fault. If you can't spot 6 inches on the table, how do you set up assaults?!?

Quote :
Will often cause the opponent to shoot at a different target that would be in range

If Night shields on your army list cause your opponent to change target priority mid-game... Who are you playing against?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar 2000pts   Dark Eldar 2000pts I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 19 2011, 15:32

PreacherOfDeath wrote:
ShadowsRevenge, you NEVER pulled off the single shardnet on me, or any other skilled player at our local GW. How many power fist attacks have you stopped from the Mech BA? How many Celestine attacks have you denied? The craftworld guy doesn't even assault you unless he uses that goofy seer council. The guard player doesn't care about the shardnet, for obvious reasons, nor the Tau guy. You haven't run wyches against the Tau guy's deathwing.

I respect your opinions very much, so I'm not going to doubt you. So, who have you met outside the store who really fell for that? I want to see them play.

Since our store lacks Nilla Marines, the only PF sargeants Ive stopped would be Harry's, but other shardnet victims would be"

Harry's Dante (twice)
Dave and Drew's IG PW toting HQ
Drew's Thunderwolves
Matt's and Shawn's Deamon Princes, as well as one of Matt's Greater Daemons
An insane number of Peter's Nid monsters
Phil's Mephiston several times (before he stopped using him)

and who knows how many sargeants. If you remember when the book first came out, all I ran was wyches. In fact I think they were my only troops up unit that 1.5k tournament we played, when I used the WWP.

And remember when you charge, you have to get into btb with as many models as possible, with only the first one being the closest. So As long as his sarge is in range of that shardnet, and it isnt the closest, then your good to jump her over to meet her new best buddy.

As for haywires, blowing up phil's, drew's, and Brian's tanks several times, as well as wrecking Harry's dreads over and over (as he was the only one taking them, up until GKs) makes me keep taking them, that and they are the same as last edition.

Also I would like to point out me and Tim have only played two times, one was a BS list day (just make the craziest thing you can) and second was him trying out his new Deathwing. So no, I havent played his infamous tau (unless you count that BS game) And use ever would use Celestine??? I dont even think Chris has the model Razz

Also, in your list of weapons, you forgot:

anything rapid fire- 6'
Melta- 6' (as you said, it doesnt need double pen, but still, 6 in is close)
Psycannons- 18'

And what do people take alot of??? Melta guns. and if they are within 6' of you and arent in assault, there is something wrong with you.


Last edited by Shadows Revenge on Fri Aug 19 2011, 15:34; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Fix the quote)
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