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 Is the Agoniser still King?

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Grub
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Sep 05, 2011 7:51 pm

None taken, also not sure structurized is actually a word but I am dyslexic, so who knows!

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Kinnay
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 4:27 am

Oh, haha, no you're right. It's 'structured'. Little mix-up on my part. Razz


And to finally add something to the OP myself:

I think the Agonizer is a must and tend to give them to my Syrens, Hekatrii, Acothysts and Helliarchs, so the weapons cannot be removed by being targeted individually. Haemonculi usually get Venom Blades or Mindphase Gauntlets, and Archons... well it depends.

I have three Archon builds:

- The IC hunter: Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, Husk Blade, Shadow Field
(People say wounding mostly on 5s or even on 6s is weak, but the Archon has 6 attacks on the charge and as soon as one single wound comes through the opponent is dead. Also the Combat Drugs help. And let's not forget the psychological factor!)

- The Infantry Killer: Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, Djinn Blade, Venom Blade, Shadow Field
(The sheer amount of attacks this guy can generate is amazing. If he then happens to run into a weak IC or MC (hello Venom Blade), for example Techmarines, Inquisitors, or really any non-combat IC, the Soul Trap makes this guy to a monster.)

- The Allrounder: Combat Drugs, Agonizer, Shadow Field
('Nuff said.)


So actually, I think the Agonizer is nice for the guaranteed wounds it can dish out against anything, especially for squad leaders, but if there is an option for the more funky weapons, I usually take those.

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Cam300
Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 6:43 am

@Kinnay wrote:

I have three Archon builds:

- The IC hunter: Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, Husk Blade, Shadow Field
(People say wounding mostly on 5s or even on 6s is weak, but the Archon has 6 attacks on the charge and as soon as one single wound comes through the opponent is dead. Also the Combat Drugs help. And let's not forget the psychological factor!)

- The Infantry Killer: Combat Drugs, Soul Trap, Djinn Blade, Venom Blade, Shadow Field
(The sheer amount of attacks this guy can generate is amazing. If he then happens to run into a weak IC or MC (hello Venom Blade), for example Techmarines, Inquisitors, or really any non-combat IC, the Soul Trap makes this guy to a monster.)

- The Allrounder: Combat Drugs, Agonizer, Shadow Field
('Nuff said.)


So actually, I think the Agonizer is nice for the guaranteed wounds it can dish out against anything, especially for squad leaders, but if there is an option for the more funky weapons, I usually take those.


Nice builds, I use your 'all rounder' but with a Venom blade/WWP, would love to try out the Djinn blade though.

Just a quick question guys; why are you taking re-roll's with VB's? It doesn't say anything about it other than poisoned 2 up in my 'Dex (I think!). Thanks.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 6:59 am

All poisoned weapons may re-roll to wound, if the bearers strength is same or higher, than the target's toughness, it's in the BRB p.42.

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Last edited by Tiri Rana on Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kinnay
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 7:02 am

That's because it says so in the BRB under Poison Weapons. If the bearer of a poisoned weapon would wound its target better with its basic strength value than with the poison, he gets a re-roll to show how the blow itself could kill the victim already, before the poison kicks in.
With S3 this only really applies to Wracks and ICs with Furious Charge, as well as Grotesques with Poison Weapons.

I don't have a page number for that, though, as I don't have my BRB with me.

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Cam300
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 7:08 am

Oh OK, thanks! That's pretty handy, but as I run no Coven units I probably won't get the chance to use it! So it applies to modified strength not base characteristic strength?
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 7:12 am

Yes, at lest it doesn't mention unmodified, and it would make no sense.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 8:53 am

While I enjoy topics like this I am sure that we all are aware that the law of averages does not take place in actual gaming. I have a pathological inability to pass Leadership tests or 4+ saves of any kind.

In my experience I have had better results using the Venom Blade on my Hekatrix than I ever did with the Agoniser. While I understand the difference between them I might get one wound through if I am lucky with the Agoniser yet I consistently wound with everything on the Venom Blade and that normally leads to more failed saves unless I'm against Assault Terminators, in which case the Agoniser probably isn't worth the extra 15pts anyway.
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Grub
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 11:26 am

I agree with the above, There always seems to be an inability to get a 4+ and you must always expect your entire army to roll under average, because thats what is most likly to happen by sods law. With regards to a wych squad anyway, they will win combats because of the shear amount of attacks so I find that a venom blade just helps add to this. At the end of the day 1 power weapon attack that hits will kill 1 man while 3/4 venom blade attacks that wound are more lkly to kill more than that.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeTue Sep 06, 2011 11:33 pm

Sorry to hear that from both of you Urien and Grub. My experiences with the agoniser is the complete opposite from both of you, as I just mowed everything that I touched . Thus I have to downgrade my list from having 3 agonisers (one on the archon, and one each on the hekatrix) to two agonisers (one on the archon and one on the hekatrii that is not attaching itself to the archon) just because I am doing too well.

Venom blades are good, but not that hot against FnP opponents. But I guess the use of the venom blade vs agoniser depends on the meta of the players in a certain area, and indeed the overall function of the weapon wielder in the grand plan of the list.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeWed Sep 07, 2011 9:40 am

Exactly Crisis, I play against nothing that has FNP except for a certain number of Tyranids (who I'd Blaster to death instead) and potential one of our irregulars if he brings Plague Marines and a Painboy on occasion with Orks. None of these targets I'd be fond of throwing the Wyches into.
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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeThu Sep 08, 2011 9:58 pm

@Urien Rakarth wrote:
Exactly Crisis, I play against nothing that has FNP except for a certain number of Tyranids (who I'd Blaster to death instead) and potential one of our irregulars if he brings Plague Marines and a Painboy on occasion with Orks. None of these targets I'd be fond of throwing the Wyches into.

Ironically those are the units that would sit on objectives those they send against us in the face. So if you can't shoot them all, you are even more in trouble. I would personally take them on 2:1 rather than a 1:1, and my shooting are for much more juicier targets.
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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 1:43 am

Personally I take both in my lists. VB's on wyches and an agoniser on hellions (only costs 15 points there). The trick I feel is to match the weapon to the target as has been said many times before during this thread.

However splinter fire is the true king of our codex.
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 9:53 am

4 pages without my post? Preposterous!

Don't forget about Power Weapons too, while they do hit most time with S3 (5+ vs. T4, 6 vs. higher), they also are a lot cheaper in some squads.

Like Wyches. Or warriors that may get charged by something.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 12:15 pm

Warriors deserve nothing more than regulation CCWs and a helpful pat on the back when they end up in assault. I haven't tried seriously assaulting with them since 4th, I don't think 5th is favorable to them as an assault tool.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 3:12 pm

I wouldn't assault with them either, however big foot units may make use of those if something will get to them. Venom blade would be... "nah" while Agoniser would be overkill.

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kenny3760
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 4:07 pm

If my warriors end up in assault, I consider them dead meat and leave them to it.
I don't really think there is much you can do to swing the outcome of a combat involving warriors, and putting wargear on them is IMO a waste of points.
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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 5:25 pm

@kenny3760 wrote:

However splinter fire is the true king of our codex.
This is so true. If we didn't have splinter fire we would just be another Craftworld Eldar codex.
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xzandrate
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 7:06 pm

Meh, it may not be ideal, but the assault warriors can easily take most other basic troops. They are probably best as a support unit in an assault though.

As far as being another Craftworld Eldar, I think we'd still be far and away better, warriors have always been one of the best basic troop per point. I still would have preferred an option to give basic warriors pistol/CCW, not just Trueborn.
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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2011 5:21 am

@Thor665 wrote:
Warriors deserve nothing more than regulation CCWs and a helpful pat on the back when they end up in assault. I haven't tried seriously assaulting with them since 4th, I don't think 5th is favorable to them as an assault tool.

I guess the only reason why I would have a Sybarite/dracon is just so that I could capitalize on that blast pistol, rather than putting a CC weapon on him. If I have the reason to just slap something on for CC deadliness, I would take the Venom blade.

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2011 7:44 am

If you are going to cough 15 points for a gun that will auto put you in assault range to use, may as well pay another five for a vblade as its beter to assault then be shot and assaulted in turn, especially if you are squishy bondage space elves.

BTW blast pistols suck.

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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2011 8:16 pm

@Sorrowshard wrote:
If you are going to cough 15 points for a gun that will auto put you in assault range to use, may as well pay another five for a vblade as its beter to assault then be shot and assaulted in turn, especially if you are squishy bondage space elves.

BTW blast pistols suck.

Blast pistols are good in certain situations, but I prefer them on my wyches than on my Kabalites. The idea of shooting the transport, popping it and then charging the occupants is an enticing one.

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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2011 9:10 pm

Now this is the problem, you probably went with and agoniser on your hek so now she costs over 40 points all by herself, the pistol will rarely be in range more then once a game and then it will rarely do anything its far from being a melta pistol (priced like one though)

I'm more often than not having to run with my wyches to make combat , fifteen points is way to steep for something that is at best circumstantial, I don't really rate darklight as AT weaponry, yay overpriced missile launchers cheers

Consider this , lets say you pack 30 (38 at 1750 can be done) darklight weps into your army , lets say on average you have to shoot av12+ so you'' get 20 hits, thats 6.6 penetrtes and 3.33 glances,

that becomes maybe two wrecks/explodes , now factor in Cover or Grayknight immunity to a third of the vehicle table ? (and every third army in a tourney being GK atm)

See how crap they are now ? most armies can't fit 30 darklight weps 20-25 is about right in the real world. over half of them will be short ranged so your opening lance salvo is gong to be 9-11 lances , which is just enough to kill one single vehicle, unless it has cover....

Hence 'the lance curse' you still want to pay 15 points , FIFTEEN Shocked points for something on the off chance it 'might' pop a vehicle once every 36 games or something ? a Melta weapon is cheaper and several times more likely to be effective, you'd think DE with their 'technical superiority' might have got it together by now.

A Void Raven is worse on the majority of targets than a vendetta and costs more ? confused

Crappy over priced lances is prob one of the few things that pisses me of about our book, Hemonculus Arcane wargear is another.

Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....


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stinger989
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 11, 2011 1:29 am

Yea i am trying to decide if it is worth putting an agoniser in my unit of 19 hellions with the baron. so far i have run without it and the squad has worked fine but there are situations that it is nice to have it, marines with fnp, large terminator squads, and some other tough units. Really i just rely on the weight of attacks but what are your thoughts for the hellion unit teamed with the barron?
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PostSubject: Re: Is the Agoniser still King?   Is the Agoniser still King? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Sep 11, 2011 5:50 pm

I run the baron and hellions as the basis of my list. The agoniser there costs 15 points, cheapest in the book but is it really worth it.
It's 41 points for that Helliarch with agoniser who gets 4 attacks on the charge. For 32 points you can get 2 hellions with 6 attacks on the charge (with some points left over).
Against SM the agoniser is likely to kill 1 marine a turn, about the same as the 2 hellglaives. Another point worth thinking about is the hellglaive/agoniser benefit from PT's. With furious charge the hellglaive becomes an even better option. S5 anyone, and against vehicles the agoniser is useless as it has no strength value. So with PT's the efficiency of the hellglaives increases. I'd say the agoniser at best has situational advantages in hellions. I tend to start my hellions with 2 PT's so I prefer the extra hellglaive attacks, but if you don't then maybe the agoniser would be the better bet.

As for having a helliarch, as you run the Baron you have no need for the Helliarch leadership, you don't need his abaility to purchase a PGL either, so do you really need the Helliarch. That 1 extra body could be the difference between a moral check or not from shooting.

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