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 I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(

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Patzerwv
Strategist
amishprn86
shadowseercB
Amornar
Count Adhemar
Crisis_Vyper
aurynn
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Mushkilla
Bibitybopitybacon
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lessthanjeff
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Klaivex Charondyr
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Azdrubael
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Azdrubael


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I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 14:39

Quote :
My 1750 Mechdar Spam list consists of 6 Serpents, 2 Night Spinners, 2x5 Hawks, 2x5 Fire Dragons, 4x5 DA and a naked Autarch.
For 1500 I cut 1 Serpent with DA and several ghost path matrices.

Also these are "all comers" lists. Doing also well against AV14 vehicles.

So, essentially a Tony Kapoch list copy, only without Wraithknight. Thats a top list out there, won Nova open. I wouldnt play without Eldar allies against that. If i will, i have explained my tactics already. I dont believe there is anything better with pure DE.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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Klaivex Charondyr


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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 14:44

This isnt even a copy Very Happy
I played this List even when Seerstar was popular because I could not be arsed to build Jetseers myself (until now where I have sufficent BFG bits to build them like planned). Also I dislike Wraithknights.. or maybe im just to stupid to use them properly...

And this is the problem here. You CANT beat serpent spam with the current dex. Just not possible.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 14:55

Quote :
And this is the problem here. You CANT beat serpent spam with the current dex. Just not possible.


You cant beat this list with a lot of armies.
Luckily you dont have to. Not many guys now packing with plates (wave serpents) to the extreme. You might need to on tournament, but thats another story. With allies and such. I dont know, i saw rise of fall of those lists. Then ppl start bringing Centurions with Grav-guns and Tigurius with ignore cover and they kinda fell away.

Thats not explicitly say this is DE book weakness. When GW introduce ally template, they got rid of their balance head aches. That CWE have unit, that is so cost effective and multi-purpose that they dont need to ally with anything doesnt set a standard for all the rest armies.

You can play with WS heavy armies, just not this extreme. Most of the guys paint something rather more interesting then packs of shooting dishes.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 16:16

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Prepairing specifically for one list is a bad Idea. Yes, you can run in multiple Sperpent Spam lists but then you lack the ability to get rid of other nasty lists. So if you dont have the absolute knowledge against which lists you will play on that tourney, preparing for a single list is a bad Idea... Sperpent Spam on the other hand is popular because it works against ANY list.
Agreed.
I don't think that refutes any of the advice I gave, and the units I'm advocating to deal with Serpent Spam also work against other armies.

@HERO wrote:
@Thor, why would a list not be necessary in this discussion?
Because we're talking list building ideas - not about a power list?

@HERO wrote:
MSU would suggest you're either taking min Warriors with a Blaster in Venoms or Raiders. Raiders give you a AT solution, and a mini-Ravager within 18" of something. Venoms provide you with zero support vs. Mechdar in long-range duels, with only a 18" Blaster if you have the Warrior.
I agree with this - I am not sure what it has to do with me advising against Warrior Gunboats nor about my idea of MSU being better than Gunboats vs. Mechdar.

@HERO wrote:
If you're suggesting MSU vs. Mechdar, then I'm hoping you're suggesting the Raider MSU variant.
I'm suggesting MSU and arguing for its strength as a build - other than that I am not making specific value calls of anti-mech vs. anti-infantry, that is a value call for someone with a clearer understanding of their local meta to make. I am US East Coast - so I tend to favor anti-mech. However, I know that my locale is not considered the norm, so I would not wish to make specific calls for others without knowing what they expect to face.

@HERO wrote:
I would also like to point out that that variant, sucks against a ton of other armies out there that are not building mech, auto-lose vs. any Ork list with bodies, Necrons, and gets out-shot by Mech IG. I will do better vs. Tau and Mechdar, but Mechdar still outweighs your shots, durability and combat after Jink by at least 2x.
I will agree, that building a pure anti-mech force will make things hard agains an infantry heavy build - I was unaware I was suggesting list tailoring.
I also am not sure why anti-mech would have a hard time versus Necrons, I consider them a mech army.
I will agree that the Wave Serpent has more firepower in a one on one consideration with anything I am advocating taking. That is why I am advocating MSU.

@HERO wrote:
Honestly, the best solution I've read so far is taking that Talos bomb
I think that idea will not work well for reasons you later offer.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 18:17

Heh... I think a simple unbound army with only Reavers with Caltrops and Heatlances would work. I believe you could have total 48 Reavers in the list plus one HQ hidden out of sight in the corner to make the Warlord point bit harder to get. Reavers in this config present a tempting target to fire the shield on and get Heatlanced for it, has plenty of ablative wounds and can deal with WKs too with surprising efficiency. 16 heatlances and 16 caltrops should do the trick with some skill. A serpent can kill what? 4 reavers a turn? Leaving the important ones alive and well or the second serpent shooting to finish off the remaining 2, making it to waste half of its shooting. As for WKs. Thanks to HnR you can rinse and repeat with poison shooting and caltrops. There is a relatively good chance that 6 reavers will bring a WK down on a first charge. Might work with half HLs half Blasters too. But I am quite confident that it has a fair chance of winning.

WS spam with WKs is playing dirty, so it needs a dirty list to play against.


Last edited by aurynn on Sun Oct 12 2014, 18:22; edited 1 time in total
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 18:21

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
How is it off topic when I say:

"Force Serpents to jink by shooting them and when they jink try to force the next Sperpent to jink is NOT gonna working as you cant muster enough firepower to make that happen on a large enough scale"?

So the entire "theory" about jinking sperpents is invalid. You cant make them reliable Jink as you have to dedicate way too much firepower to threaten them enough to even consider jinking.

So the whole " If you get one snapshooting then stop shooting at it." doesnt even matter as you wont get any significant number of Serpents into snapshots.

This is about "How to beat Wave Serpent Spam" and a "let them jink and shoot another one" is not going to beat such a list. Because:
1) You need more firepower than you can muster with the new Dex
2) Your firepower shrinks every game turn
3) Even a jinking Serpent can still pose a Threat to fragile DE Transports and flyers

It's off topic because you say I'm wrong about how much damage a snapshooting wave serpent will do to a dark eldar vehicle and then justify your answer by saying "well you can't make it jink". How I make it jink is a different issue, and I said I can describe that if you'd like as a separate discussion, but that doesn't change what I said before or how you keep arguing something different than the amount of damage each wave serpent will put out once you make it jink.

Here's a breakdown of what I do that has made the Eldar and the Taudar players at my club do everything in their power to avoid matchups with me as well as some background on the kind of decisions they make and how they use their units (since I don't think any one strategy or build will work against all Eldar players the same way).

I run several raider warrior squads with a blaster inside and several more warrior squads in venoms with blasters. This gives me 10 separate lance shots (and I'm considering adding haywire grenades to each squad to get 6 extra vehicle threats for 15 points each but it would affect how I have to play the army to get in range for them and I'm not sure it'd be better than getting more of the loadout I have). The real advantage here is that I set up groups of 2 or 3 vehicles in a location where they can each threaten multiple wave serpents. Since I can fire each lance separately, this puts them in the difficult position of knowing when they don't jink they'll just have 4 or 5 more lances come at the same wave serpent one at a time or they'll declare a jink on the first 1 or 2 and the other ones will target a different wave serpent instead, often forcing multiple to jink even with just one 115 point unit.

My opponents tend not to fire their serpent shields at all when they're at full hullpoints because they've seen me get lucky kills often enough by firing all of these individual lances at them one at a time. That also works in my favor because it reduces how much damage I'm taking in general and allows me to dominate the maelstrom objectives with my superior numbers as I rack up points and keep their output to a minimum.

The large discrepancy in points costs (since the loadout for each WS you're describing costs twice as much as each of my raider and venom squads) also allows me to have my backup units like scourges , razorwing jetfighters, and a crimson skyhunter in case the luck swings one way or the other so that at the end of the shooting phase, the 1 or 2 vehicles I might not have neutralized can still be taken out. My ace in the hole is a deepstriking raider with a squad of fire dragons, exarch, fast shot, and archon with a haywire grenade which hasn't failed to knock out multiple vehicles yet. This isn't a list I specially run against Eldar either, I've had great success against the Tau and Necrons as well by adjusting how I use these same units.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 19:19

@Thor

Quote :
Because we're talking list building ideas - not about a power list?

No, you're just trying to play the semantics game when what we're talking about is one and the same.  Mechdar is a power list, it has an idea around what it's purpose is and what units are in the actual army to make it work.  If you're going to fight a power list, its idea and its components, you need to be able to provide the same level of detail.  This is a game of points and you only have so many of it to make an army work after all.

Quote :
I agree with this - I am not sure what it has to do with me advising against Warrior Gunboats nor about my idea of MSU being better than Gunboats vs. Mechdar.

Because when you suggest MSU vs. Mechdar, you have to agree to the points I made about 2 types of MSU, being Raiders or Venom as the core of your fighting force.  Raiders are better vs AT, Venoms are better AP, a mix of both is well, a mix of both.  Raiders are only mildy effective vs. WS, even if you have 6 and he has 4.  Venoms are completely outmatched.  You advising against Warrior Gunboats means you advise going pure MSU.  This, however, does not offer a solution to Mechdar, which is the point of this thread.  Math will tell you that you need a crap ton of lance shots, to score a kill on an AV12 3 HP Skimmer with Holo.  He's coming back at you with a much, much higher volume of shots that are both more accurate, but do far more damage to your vehicles with you have no hopes to dodge Ignore Cover.

I don't care if you said MSU is better than a Gunboat.  crap, a Gunboat bare bones is only a little bit more than a unit with bare Warriors and a Blaster.  The difference is that you'll have a unit that can either do virtually no damage to a unit of Marines in the open, or a unit that will do decent damage.  Regardless, this discussion is not about that but it's about the WS.  MSU, Venom, Raider, whatever, will not beat the standard Mechdar list.

Quote :
I'm suggesting MSU and arguing for its strength as a build - other than that I am not making specific value calls of anti-mech vs. anti-infantry, that is a value call for someone with a clearer understanding of their local meta to make. I am US East Coast - so I tend to favor anti-mech. However, I know that my locale is not considered the norm, so I would not wish to make specific calls for others without knowing what they expect to face.

You're literally trying to dodge the question of how to effectively counter Mechdar (if that option even exists) with Dark Eldar.  Mechdar is the same no matter where you play, because by nature of the list itself and its components, you're still dealing with 4+ Wave Serpents.  I have listed a 3 very popular variants and other people have brought that up in this thread as well.

Do we have a counter vs. one of the most popular competitive builds out there, yes or no?  If you think we do, provide a possible solution.  If you don't think we do, then just say it.

I for one think the matchup is nearly unwinnable with DE unless you take heavy Eldar components yourself.  You then kinda corner yourself into the mentality that you're better off playing Eldar, because you'll realize that most of the effective options exist in their book, aside from the WWP, which is something I've called out time and time again.  We literally have nothing to offer an Eldar player that they don't already have outside of that.

Unless, of course, you've reached the same conclusion that I did and is now beating around the bush with a list because you're fighting a 95-5 matchup.  If that's the case, just say it.  I can say it, because I've played 5 games so far with Mechdar and against Mechdar with pure DE, DE/Eldar and vice versa.  Every single one of those games as the Dark Eldar player I felt like I was being bullied the entire time, not by raw generalship, but the fact that his crap is seemingly invincible while I fly around in paper crap.  For every WS I down, he downs 3, because this is game of probability and math and single-shot lances from MSU Raiders do jack crap vs. a WS.  As the Dark Eldar/Eldar player, I felt pain and anguish for the players I played against, one of which is here in this very chat, who made this very thread.

@Mush, I agree, but not in the case of Mechdar. Mechdar is a list that relies on Wave Serpents to do the heavy lifting and thus, is rather predictable. I have listed common variants seen in tournaments, that should be enough for the purposes of this discussion.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:20

Quote :
My ace in the hole is a deepstriking raider with a squad of fire dragons, exarch, fast shot, and archon with a haywire grenade which hasn't failed to knock out multiple vehicles yet. This isn't a list I specially run against Eldar either, I've had great success against the Tau and Necrons as well by adjusting how I use these same units.

So you are going to use Eldar allies? This is not the point of the Thread. A solution within and limited to the DE codex is asked. Otherwise you could just say "try Space Marine grav spam"

But you are free to give an example of your list. I have posted my Serpent spam list a few posts above.
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:49

So you ignored the entire paragraph using just over half the cost in Dark Eldar exclusive units where I've forced my opponent's entire fleet of wave serpents to snap shoot either through him jinking or letting me fire penetrating shots into him? The fire dragons aren't even part of that strategy.

Are you going to explain how I was wrong about the output of a wave serpent while snapshooting yet or do you see how those are two different topics now?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 21:10

@HERO wrote:
@Thor

Quote :
Because we're talking list building ideas - not about a power list?

No, you're just trying to play the semantics game when what we're talking about is one and the same.  Mechdar is a power list, it has an idea around what it's purpose is and what units are in the actual army to make it work.  If you're going to fight a power list, its idea and its components, you need to be able to provide the same level of detail.  This is a game of points and you only have so many of it to make an army work after all.
I disagree with you and the logic presented here. But, okay - give me the point total for the event, the missions that will be used, any build restrictions/house rules, and the local meta (and also maybe the mechdar list you fear) and I'll build a list against it.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 21:16

Serpents are hard for us for sure.. but they were hard before the new dex. Not much changed there.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 21:22

I would say the Ravager point shift, wyches changing, and loss of Beasts did make it tougher.

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 21:37

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
Serpents are hard for us for sure.. but they were hard before the new dex. Not much changed there.

Ravager more expensive, HWG Wyches gone, Beaststar gone

They were hard for sure but not as hard as now.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 22:00

@Thor665 wrote:
I would say the Ravager point shift, wyches changing, and loss of Beasts did make it tougher.
In all fairness the dex has only been out a week. How long did it take us to figure out baron with beasts? Combined with the coven supplement we will find other ways of killing them. I have full faith in the dark city!
Now get to thinking so I can shamelessly use your ideas to raid realspace! alien
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 22:16

Quote :
In all fairness the dex has only been out a week. How long did it take us to figure out baron with beasts? Combined with the coven supplement we will find other ways of killing them. I have full faith in the dark city!

It did take us till 7th edition where we got Farseers with invisibility. And then the Baron to disengage from tarpits or knights.
A Beaststar without invisibility did not need baron as it was not so hard to deal with.
First incarnation was beaststar with seer for rerolls.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 22:31

@Klaivex Charondyr wrote:
Quote :
In all fairness the dex has only been out a week. How long did it take us to figure out baron with beasts? Combined with the coven supplement we will find other ways of killing them. I have full faith in the dark city!

It did take us till 7th edition where we got Farseers with invisibility. And then the Baron to disengage from tarpits or knights.
A Beaststar without invisibility did not need baron as it was not so hard to deal with.
First incarnation was beaststar with seer for rerolls.
Before that it was harlie star. We'll come up with something else.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 00:51

@Thor665 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@Thor

Quote :
Because we're talking list building ideas - not about a power list?

No, you're just trying to play the semantics game when what we're talking about is one and the same.  Mechdar is a power list, it has an idea around what it's purpose is and what units are in the actual army to make it work.  If you're going to fight a power list, its idea and its components, you need to be able to provide the same level of detail.  This is a game of points and you only have so many of it to make an army work after all.
I disagree with you and the logic presented here. But, okay - give me the point total for the event, the missions that will be used, any build restrictions/house rules, and the local meta (and also maybe the mechdar list you fear) and I'll build a list against it.

Absolutely, this is a great exercise.  Like I said, the idea would not to be to criticize your list, but present a possible solution to Mechdar.

Here are the restrictions:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bay-area-open-2014/bao-tournament-format/

You're building for 1850, and the meta will look like this:
-Mechdar, 2x WK-variant, Autarch variant, Spiritseer/Wraithguard, all of these lists may or may not have Farseers to provided Shrouded.
-Tau, with possible SM allies, assume your standard gunline with Broadsides, Buffmander, Kroot backfielders and Riptides.  New suit will be allowed at the event.
-Space Marine-variants, possible Imperial Knight allies (made popular last major), but almost always grav-shooting
-Imperial Knights
-Chaos Space Marines, typical Nurgle play + Heldrakes
-Necrons, big infantry or MSU mech-playstyles with Ghost Arks, Lord in Chariot and Annihilation Barges
-Demons, typical flying circus
-Tyranids, while rare, almost always come with dual dakka-flyrants.

I listed this in the order of most frequently encountered and the hardest matchups for us (IMO).  If I showed up at this event, I would take heavy Eldar support.

Quote :
1850
18 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Haywire = 100
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*

FAST:
5x Fire Dragons, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 255*

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*

The playstyle is MSU, Archon is set as WWP bitch for the Fire Dragon's unit so it can come down and hopefully take down 2 units.  The Autarch is also in the same unit with the Fusion Gun, while taking advantage of the +1 reserve rule to bring in for alpha strike, or counter-reserve vs. enemy Eldar forces not using the Autarch.  The Fire Dragons have meltabombs, the Autarch comes with a Haywire and your own Archon has one as well, making them highly dangerous in an assault vs. any armored foe.  The pinpoint WWP drop will also make sure that I can get the jump in on a Knight, and hopefully take it down with a lucky salvo.

The list is constructed to take maximum firepower and ranged dominance for anti-tank, having no less than 13 lance shots at 36", which syngerizes with the Wave Serpent's ability to follow suit with Scatter Lasers and Serpent Shields.  The Night Spinner is there to flush out tightly enemy Eldar hiding behind any buildings, since S8 barrage with typically no cover and side armor is actually not bad if going first.

My biggest challenge here will be opposing WS as they can take out my anti-tank elements if I let them, so the key would be reserve manipulation and deepstrike advantage.  My opponent will almost knowingly follow suit, but if he doesn't have an Autarch, I will be able to hold the advantage over him.  In a situation that requires me to negotiate a alpha strike, I will need to hide the Night Spinner on the board and just pray for lucky barrage while jinking for my life next turn if he tries to hunt me down.

I know that there is absolutely no presence of air here and that is fine for me, having seen what twin-linked Ignore Cover WS can do to opposing air units, and them doing little to no damage in return because of Fast Skimmer Jinks.  Due to the fact that I invested heavily in playing vs. Mech, I'm now vulnerable to stuff like Lootas, any kind of meat tides in general, and maybe even Tyranids considering that I don't have the massed Venom shots.  Then again, they don't like a lot of lance shots either, and I do have a healthy amount of S6+ shots myself coming from the WS support.  I feel that with this list, I'll also feel good vs. Tau, seeing how enough powerful shooting will hopefully do heavy damage to Broadsides and other T4 instantly-gibbable units, but that's never a sure thing.  I know for sure Riptides do not like the high volume of Lances, but Shrouded Wraithknights will most likely have a field day with me.  Hopefully, I will be able to negotiate the DS dice-gods into letting me have some Warriors drop down on their face while I concentrate on the lesser amount of WS present in double WK lists.

<3, just in case you think this discussion we're having is getting heated. I just want us to have the most success possible while fighting against the odds (which seems like its been the case forever).

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 01:07

Wait, so you want me to show you what an MSU list is about and then build an MSU list to answer your own question?

You lost me.

Though I do now understand why you consider Flying Circus an issue.
My list would be a few less Raiders and a few more Venoms, but otherwise that is very similar to what I was running for the DE prior to the new dex, and similar to what I'd run now though with a few flavor differences (I am not a fan of the Night Spinner)

But...I thought you needed to understand why I liked MSU over Gunboats - yet you seem to be of the same mindset. So...where is our communication issue exactly? Or is it just that you want to see more than one MSU style list to compare and contrast them? (in which case we need a different thread as that is way off topic for this one).

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 01:12

@Thor665 wrote:
Wait, so you want me to show you what an MSU list is about and then build an MSU list to answer your own question?

You lost me.

Though I do now understand why you consider Flying Circus an issue.
My list would be a few less Raiders and a few more Venoms, but otherwise that is very similar to what I was running for the DE prior to the new dex, and similar to what I'd run now though with a few flavor differences (I am not a fan of the Night Spinner)

But...I thought you needed to understand why I liked MSU over Gunboats - yet you seem to be of the same mindset. So...where is our communication issue exactly? Or is it just that you want to see more than one MSU style list to compare and contrast them? (in which case we need a different thread as that is way off topic for this one).

Ah, but I never had a question about MSU.  I made statements, never did I ask a question about why you would take MSU.  I presented facts about MSU, about MSU variants, or why I think Gunboats are still a viable option.  I just wanted to see your solution to Mechdar, if you even had one.  Are you still willing to share what you would bring to the above event?  Or are you going to continuously dodge the question?

I want to see what you would take in a competitive, 1850 event where Mechdar variants will be running around in bulk.  I honestly don't know why you're being so difficult with this.  Are your lists magical and need to be protected or else they won't work?  It's really starting to get frak frustrating trying to talk to you.

Honestly, if you dodge the question again, it's going to be pretty embarrassing.  The reason why I posted what I did is because I was flat out tired of asking what your thought process was.  It literally felt like a 1-word reply in an interview, repeatedly.  I hope you can see how frustrating that is. It's fine though, I hope the others following this thread are able to learn what they can.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 01:43

I'm not trying to be difficult, if talking o me is frustrating you then you can always stop. Allow me to walk through the conversation as I understand it;

I originally made a statement "MSU is good versus mechdar - I will specifically note that Venoms are superior to taking Gunboats as an example of this"
I then felt you questioned it by asking "how doe that help?"
I showed that for the price of Gunboats you could get MSU Venoms that would be better.
You then asked how that would work, and asked for a list.
I said a list wasn't needed and showed the two units in question and the point savings.
You then said that Raiders would be better than Venoms vs. Mechdar.
I agreed with this.
You said you didn't care if MSU was better than a Gunboat build and suggested I was using semantics to...avoid showing a list for some reason.
I offered to build an MSU list if it would help.
You showed that you would also build an MSU list.

As far as I can tell - you maybe thought I was arguing take Venoms to kill Mechdar" which...would be pretty stupid for anyone to say, so I'm not sure why you thought I said that, but even if I did I have become lost again as to the point here.

So, you are aware that MSU is better than Gunboats - so you agree with me.
We have both agreed that Raiders are better vs. Mechdar than Venoms.
I have never advocated taking mountains of Venoms (and, by a look across my posts on this site have *long* been a proponent of taking more Raiders than Venoms in TAC lists)

You also appear to be aware that it is possible to build a strong DE based list, though it is still going to be an upward climb versus Mechdar, since that is a strong build. So it's not like you need to be told that options exist.

So, really my question is - what is the purpose of seeing a list from me since you do not appear to be disagreeing with any of my advice or any of my suggestions - nor do I appear to be disagreeing with any of your opinions except the one where I need to show a list to make the statements I am making.

If you are desperate to see a list I made, poke around, they're out there, and have been for years and editions. My style hasn't changed much, so it's pretty clear what I build and use, and it's not likely to change much with this codex.

What I'm trying to understand is what the list will help illustrate for this conversation. When I thought you didn't understand the concept of using MSU to save points and provide target saturation I was more agreeable to the idea - but since you clearly do...what am I trying to show you via a list other than "here is a list"?

My goal in this thread is not to present a list.
My goal in this thread is to help the OP (and any others who want it) to understand the *principals* behind a list that can handle Serpent Spam.
They can get a net list anywhere and I don't think it will help them, what I want to teach them is why the net lists work or don't work.
If me building a list here in thread can advance that idea, I'm interested, if not, I'm confused as to the point. I have become confused as to your point though, I will admit.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 01:57

Quote :
So, really my question is - what is the purpose of seeing a list from me since you do not appear to be disagreeing with any of my advice or any of my suggestions - nor do I appear to be disagreeing with any of your opinions except the one where I need to show a list to make the statements I am making.

Because I want to see how you manage your points, and which options you can take while making sacrifices necessary to fight the metagame scenario, with the points restrictions and missions that I presented.

I can give a damn about netlists, but I need to be able to present my list and explain why I take the options that I do.  I expected you to do the same, but you didn't show me the same courtesy.

When it comes to helping others and guiding them to the right path for success for a problem, you need to be able to explain yourself down to the specifics.  In my posts, I try to expand on why I believe certain things are.  In the majority of your posts, it seemed more like you were trying to win an argument, which at this point I'm not sure even exists.

Your goal might not to be to present a list, but when I ask you for one and your thought process around it, and you're not able to supply one, it really sticks out like a sore thumb.  This figurative thumb suggests to me that you haven't thought about this as much as you claim, you're not really about the specifics, and you're not able to present a all-comers list that can fight Serpent spam in a diverse metagame.  This is troublesome to me because I am all about the thought process.

A single netlist will not help anyone, but if you explain:
-The metgame, clearly defined.
-The thought process behind the unit choices.
-The execution of said unit choices.
-And when you make certain decisions.

This is what I was looking for.  In fact, I'm willing to wager that that's what others are looking for as well, because they might not be as experienced or knowledgeable as yourself.  If you're unwilling to provide these more specific details, then that's on you.

But since I'm not you, I will provide all of those above because I know it makes for a better discussion. The others who are reading can determine who is more useful.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 02:49

This thread is a mess. Put personal differences aside fellas and get back on track. The OP is having difficulty with WS spam and it appears he wants to remain pure DE.

Original post:
Quote :
After quantum analyzing the dex 3 times, i still cant beat wave serpents. The lack of Invl saves really hurted badly. vehicles easily went down to serpents. Ive tried scourges with HB's, Reavers, Hellions, venom spam, raider spam, Beast packs,etc... Nothing. I need a little help with this, id appreciate it
OP- I would be interested to hear more about the lists you commonly face and what you used at what pt value.
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 03:09

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
After quantum analyzing the dex 3 times, i still cant beat wave serpents. The lack of Invl saves really hurted badly. vehicles easily went down to serpents. Ive tried scourges with HB's, Reavers, Hellions, venom spam, raider spam, Beast packs,etc... Nothing. I need a little help with this, id appreciate it

Thanks Smile

I will say honestly I have a similar conundrum as I find that Serpents negates a lot of things from our army. However, I managed to mitigate it to a certain extent to have a better game. Ridiculous invul saves and LOS blocking terrain withstanding, here are ways I dealt with Serpents to a reasonable degree;

1) Forcing your opponent to roll 6s to hit you. Whether it is to force your opponent to jink their serpents or using flyers, if the opponent is forced to roll 6s to hit you, even with the twin-linked you can mitigate several destroyed vehicles per turn. It is not the best solution to the underlying problem, but a better solution that letting the Serpent rampage with full BS and full complement of shots hitting you.

2) If you want to bring that serpent down in assault, make sure that you have 2-3 squads of assaulters to take it down, preferably one that hits fast and hits hard and can be taken in massive numbers.

My particular preferences is for Reavers as their inherent rules allow me to truly have several chances to take it down (anti-tank ranged, hammer of wrath and perhaps even that 1+ str drug). I find that the most optimum ratio of full-squads Reavers to hunt down a Serpent is 2:1. However, the problem in the end lies with the efficiency of such an action and also the money cost of having so much reavers (I am fortunate to have 2 full squads of 12 Reavers to pull off a one-way trip to a Serpent and murder it by weight of numbers).

Of course, this have to be supported by other elements to allow for more supported, such as scourges and darklight weaponry.

I know that it is a hard matchup, but I always do my best to lessen its effects to get a more even match. So far, I am still wondering about my ratio of such units to mitigate the Serpent Problem. Not the best, but we need to start somewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 03:25

Crisis_Viper- your on the same track as myself. I was gonna wait for the OP's response but the wife's demanding attention.. something about wine. Anyway heres where I'd start:

Reavers. At least 9 strong but maybe even 12. Full caltrops and blasters. x 4 units, maybe more (or not if attempting all comers since I'd want ways to deal with the other meta crusher.. IKs)
2 cronos- spirit probes.
Urien.
2 troops- raiders, dl.

And yes I've faced WS spam although not with pure DE honestly. Thing is while they are the premiere gunboat in todays competitive meta, people have elevated them to boogyman status. Only the shields ignore cover and they are ap-. The other guns are meh. Also there are typically 2 builds IME.. full guns meant to get up close and only the TLSL meant to sit back.

How it works:
The above approach hinges on conferring FNP 5+ from the start to every model since the probes say unit. Proper placement will ensure this is conferred to every last model thus the larger unit sizes.
Now the serpents have essentially one turn and one hard decision.. drop the shields or not. Their other weaponry wont be enough to bring down those bikes with 3+ jink/FNP. The shields wont either realistically with 5+ armour/FNP. Blasters only make it harder.
Now usually I would not advocate reavers assaulting tanks. Its a bad idea with templates and blasts but against full on serpent spam it is the best and really the only method worth talking about because engaging in a shoot out is not a profitable trade for us. Cronos double as backfield insurance for when they attempt to boost out of harms way. Which they will (at the cost of shooting). Anticipate disembarked DAVUs to bubble wrap and other tricks but I feel this shell is a good starting point to playing spoiler (at least with the tools we have).

Thats all for now.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :(   I Need Help Beating Wave Serpent Spam with new dex :( - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 03:51

@HERO wrote:
Because I want to see how you manage your points, and which options you can take while making sacrifices necessary to fight the metagame scenario, with the points restrictions and missions that I presented.
Which as far as i can tell, remains irrelevant to everything we were discussing.

In the spirit of the OP. If I was to take a pure DE list to that sort of event I would take;

Archon, Aggie, Soul Trap, S.Field
4 Grots in Raider (lance) + Aberration + Scissorhand
Min Warrior w. Raider(lance) + Blaster
Min Warrior w. Raider(lance) + Blaster
Min Warrior w. Raider(lance) + Blaster
Min Warrior w. Raider(lance) + Blaster
Min Warrior w. Venom (extra s.cannon) + Blaster
Min Trueborn w. Venom (extra s.cannon) + 3 Blasters
Ravager (lances)
Ravager (lances)
Ravager (lances)
5 Scourges w. HWB
Razorwing w. dissies and missiles
Razorwing w. dissies and missiles


I would do something different with Eldar Allies (and, yeah, if I wanted to top table I'd do that if I was also focused on DE primary, though, frankly if top tables was my main goal I wouldn't take DE as primary)
I also have not yet picked up the Coven supplement so accept I may be overlooking something good there, though I think just for the single Grot unit probably not so much.

Looking at your listed fear reads;

This list does well versus fliers and FMCs, it loves FMCs. It also perform well versus Riptides and Wraithknights. I give up some melta oomph found in your list for more lances, making me better versus big targets but weaker versus medium armored targets, though I have the ability to more heavily saturate the enemy list in an attempt to force jinks and or shaken/stunned results. I also have an assault element capable of rending Serpents if they can reach them, much less other mech, as well as being able to tarpit and/or crush a wide variety of enemy units outside of vehicles, and though I lack reserve manipulation I am certainly free to play that game if the board and enemy composition encourages it and I have the option to DS everything, though I will admit I dislike starting off the board and consider it a poor use for a fragile army...then again, some tournaments love deserts.

I'm still not sure where this is going, nor how it helps people understand what they need to do to deal with Waveserpents.

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