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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:04

Tau I played today DS'd a unit of 3 crisis suits with 2x burst cannon, 5 gun drones, and a commander with the twin-link/ignores cover gear. The 3 suits had target lock.
In the shooting phase that single unit, with little markerlight support, tore down 3 venoms no problem.

How are we supposed to deal with this?
Or better yet how do we defend against it?

More information, details, & lists down the page a little ways!

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Last edited by Laughingcarp on Sat Oct 11 2014, 01:34; edited 3 times in total
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MFive
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:17

TLDR; we don't/can't, all we can really do is try to mitigate the damage
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:23

Haha TLDR? K.
Solid, thanks for the tip.

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MFive
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:31

@Laughingcarp wrote:
Haha TLDR? K.
Solid, thanks for the tip.

Cool

there is only one tau playin my group, and he does not like to play them

some ideas that might help though:
take inquisition allies, some acolytes, 5+ armour, bolters, nice and cheap give them a god-hammer LR, and some inquisitors with skulls. fill your deployment area with the skills, then on turn 5, have them all run out grab some objectives

the landraider can also be used to be a table placeholder for the rest of your army coming in from reserves if you are going second
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:32

@Laughingcarp wrote:
Tau I played today DS'd a unit of 3 crisis suits with 2x burst cannon, 5 gun drones, and a commander with the twin-link/ignores cover gear. The 3 suits had target lock.
In the shooting phase that single unit, with little markerlight support, tore down 3 venoms no problem.

How are we supposed to deal with this?
Or better yet how do we defend against it?

Is this the first time you've played against Tau or something? Their new book is insane, and along side Mechdar, they're literally the antithesis of Dark Eldar playstyles.

I guess you can take more Haeomonculi units, but Kabal-heavy lists suffer heavily vs. Tau. Too many long-ranged, multiple, high-S shots that ignore cover. It's just brutal.

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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 00:49

For dark eldar against Tau it is mandatory to remove as many markerlights as you can turn one.  If you're deploying 2nd, put yourself so that as much as you can is >36" from any units of broadsides and ideally behind blos cover.  If the Tau player has IonTides (riptide w/ ion accelerator as opposed to HBCtide with the heavy burst cannon) make sure you spread out, as lots of Dark Eldar players like to try and stack coversaves by tucking vehicles close together.

Use venoms to take out pathfinders & marker drones wherever possible; save lances for shooting into broadsides or crisis suits to force the tau player to either risk ID wounds on expensive models, or go to ground & eliminate their shooting - prioritize crisis suits over broadsides due to their improved mobility.

Regarding the specific crisis bomb that you describe, your only real protection is to ensure you're spread out enough that the squad can only target a few models.  Based on the loadout described I would reasonably expect to lose 4-6 hullpoints across venoms (depending on the # of markerlights committed) the turn that squad arrives & there's nothing you can do to stop it except not being there.  I wouldn't advocate trying to reserve for a beta strike either, as you really need 100% of your firepower committed from turn one to shutdown threats quickly, before the Tau player is able to establish central board control.

*edit*
CWE are far scarrier than Tau
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 01:07

My main play group pack soooooo much Ignores Cover it's redic! Now with the new book I'm trying to be less reliant on cover and more reliant on resiliency. Lots of 4+ FnP on High T models is a what I'm working with to mitigate such damage

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 01:27

clever handle, thanks for the tips. I tried to drop markerlights but 2.5 venoms only dropped 2 pathfinders (GTG in ruins) out of his 15 1st turn. He went first and tore open my Scourges with hammerhead blasts and broke a venom cannon. The rest of my army was hidden aside from talos, who didn't take a scratch.

@HERO wrote:
Is this the first time you've played against Tau or something?  Their new book is insane, and along side Mechdar, they're literally the antithesis of Dark Eldar playstyles.

Yeah tell me about it. First time playing against this particular Tau opponent as DE.
I'm 5-0 vs this guy's Tau with my CSM so I know the shenanigans Tau can pull, but I've never encountered this particular drop before.
I know I could have solved part of the problem by keeping my army together (deployment and movement) instead of spreading across the board, but that's hindsight for ya.

I was running the following:
Haemy, armour of misery, agonizer
Archon, shadowfield, WWP, archangel of pain

3x 5 kabbies, venom/SC
5 kabbies, raider, NS, TGL

6 grots (go with HQs in WWP)
3 mandrakes

5 scourges, 4 HWB
3x3 reavers, blaster, CC
venom/SC

2 Talos
Cronos, probe
Ravager, NS

while my opponent had something like this:
Crisis Commander, ignore cover/twin-link, drone controller
3 crisis suits w/ 2x burst cannon, target lock
5 gun drones

3 double plasma rifle crisis suit

fireblade (on quad gun)
3x 6 fire warrior
10 kroot, hound

the formation with 2 units of 3 missilesides and an ion-riptide, granting armourbane

3x 5 pathfinder

Railhead
Ionhead

ADL, quad gun

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Minks
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 01:37

@clever handle wrote:
For dark eldar against Tau it is mandatory to remove as many markerlights as you can turn one.  If you're deploying 2nd, put yourself so that as much as you can is >36" from any units of broadsides and ideally behind blos cover.  If the Tau player has IonTides (riptide w/ ion accelerator as opposed to HBCtide with the heavy burst cannon) make sure you spread out, as lots of Dark Eldar players like to try and stack coversaves by tucking vehicles close together.

Use venoms to take out pathfinders & marker drones wherever possible; save lances for shooting into broadsides or crisis suits to force the tau player to either risk ID wounds on expensive models, or go to ground & eliminate their shooting - prioritize crisis suits over broadsides due to their improved mobility.

Regarding the specific crisis bomb that you describe, your only real protection is to ensure you're spread out enough that the squad can only target a few models.  Based on the loadout described I would reasonably expect to lose 4-6 hullpoints across venoms (depending on the # of markerlights committed) the turn that squad arrives & there's nothing you can do to stop it except not being there.  I wouldn't advocate trying to reserve for a beta strike either, as you really need 100% of your firepower committed from turn one to shutdown threats quickly, before the Tau player is able to establish central board control.

*edit*
CWE are far scarrier than Tau

Good advice here. I'd not discount a deep-striking unit or two entirely mind - my worry would be (with a 6-inch shooting range from transports) I'd be unable to counterstrike at his suits effectively otherwise (as I'd imagine the opponent would target a relatively isolated part of the force from a position offering cover or lack of los, unless the suits are sacrificial).
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 02:20

Thanks! Most of that is stuff I'm trying to internalize. S8/AP2 vs suits, shoot the markerlights first, deploy out of reach unless you've got the Alpha strike, these are things I know and do.
I think my biggest trouble is deployment and counter-deployment. So you advocate keeping pretty much everything on the table hey?

And I know CWE's rep, I've yet to have the pleasure of playing them whereas two of my regular opponents are Tau players.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 02:53

This is exactly the kind of unit I'm taking a raider full of medusae and a wwp for. If he has target locks in the unit, then he won't have interceptor so you can drop down right next to them and roast the squad. Pick the side that won't have the 2+ save out front. Even if he has a squad of broadsides with interceptor in the area, it may knock out the transport but he won't even have markerlight support for it and the squad inside should still be pretty intact.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 02:56

Dude. So much win. Gonna have to try this. My only worry would be the Medusae showing up before the Crisis Suits. Comms Relay?

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 03:29

@Laughingcarp wrote:
Dude. So much win. Gonna have to try this. My only worry would be the Medusae showing up before the Crisis Suits. Comms Relay?

Or an autarch. An autarch, 6 swooping hawks, and three jetbikes are what I'm considering for an allied force. Autarch for reserves and hawks for pathfinders.
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 05:37

Basically looks like that Tau guy tailored for Dark Eldar (at least to me) Tactics wise I guess it would be a bubblewrap castle. Deploy your troops outside of the Venoms/Boats leave a gap in there so between your troop ring and your Venoms if he scatters away he doesn't have a shot at more than one. If he ignores your troops on the ground they can then try assaulting (if you have more than one unit since the 1st will be murdered by overwatch) or lining up shots on the gun drones, unless it has changed drones count as part of the unit for casualty purposes and I believe have a lower toughness, if you can kill the drones and force a moral test within that -2LD bubble you may have a chance to break that unit, (for what ever good it would do)

Another option of course is to try to leave a nice pocket for him to deep strike and just hope he scatters and mishaps buying you more time and/or killing the unit for free points
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Hannibal.Lictor
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 05:47

Grots with liquifiers say FU to those fools. I think they are better than the meds. So my son plays farsight and that damn formation, so I know it well.

I would screen with the MCs and keep stuff hidden until they arrive. Keep as much off the table as possible. By using the talosi correctly you can control a corner and deny space for his DS. It won't stop that unit but you can fence in a pretty large area or force a mishap if he gambles. You can mitigate a strong alpha that way. When that thing dose come down, eat it with the screening MCs. Then bomb the grots (with liquifiers) on the damn broadsides. If you can kill the suits and the sides before round 3/4 you should be in decent shape. If the riptide has FNP, ignore it for the most part. Even though it can hit hard; unless he beefs a jump move and you can assault him.

Lastly, SMS, do not get within 30 of those things with our transports.
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 09:46

Is that DS Fearless?

It is not, you can play with D. PGL, and the relics who makes her test, causes wound for the difference
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 12:01

I'm still trying to find a way to efficiently get a comms relay in another thread. If you want to just run an aegis and comms for 70 points you can and then field it with some mandrakes or something for 2+ saves. I'm still using an Autarch for now, but I want to find a fortification that combos with my army better than just feeling like a tax for the relay.

For the morale suggestions, against most Tau units I'd absolutely agree that you could break the unit easily with the armor of misery. The commander has leadership 10 though and will be hard to catch up to with the jetpack moves. Even if you get him in combat, he can take stubborn for the turn and ignore the combat losses.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 12:19

Tormentor grenades is a nice little extra against Tau.

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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 12:28

If you know you're fighting TAU, yeah. I really want to use them, but I can't justify them in my lists because I never know who I'll be fighting and most enemies will be immune to its effects.

I hate that they gave us a lot of ways to attack morale when there are still so many armies that just ignore its effects. I'd like them to make morale a bigger issue in the game like it is in fantasy and make stuff like ATSKNF (termies only maybe) and fearless more rare.
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 18:23

@Larndorn wrote:
Basically looks like that Tau guy tailored for Dark Eldar (at least to me) Tactics wise I guess it would be a bubblewrap castle.  Deploy your troops outside of the Venoms/Boats leave a gap in there so between your troop ring and your Venoms if he scatters away he doesn't have a shot at more than one. If he ignores your troops on the ground they can then try assaulting (if you have more than one unit since the 1st will be murdered by overwatch) or lining up shots on the gun drones, unless it has changed drones count as part of the unit for casualty purposes and I believe have a lower toughness, if you can kill the drones and force a moral test within that -2LD bubble you may have a chance to break that unit, (for what ever good it would do)

Another option of course is to try to leave a nice pocket for him to deep strike and just hope he scatters and mishaps buying you more time and/or killing the unit for free points

No way, check out this list.

Quote :
1848
12 KP

HQ:
Commander = 160
Shield Generator, Flamer, Fusion Blaster
Drone Controller, NW System Jammer, MSSS

Fireblade = 60

TROOPS:
12x Fire Warriors = 108
12x Fire Warriors = 108
6x Fire Warriors = 54

ELITE:
XV104 Riptide = 190
Ion Accelerator, Early Warning Override

XV104 Riptide = 190
Ion Accelerator, Early Warning Override

3x Crisis Suits = 144
TL Missile Pods
BS Filter, Early Warning Override

FAST:
12x Marker Drones = 168

HEAVY:
3x XV88 Broadside = 210
High-yield Missile Pod
Target Locks

3x XV88 Broadside = 210
High-yield Missile Pod
Target Locks

Hammerhead Gunship = 146
SMS, Submunition Rounds
BS Filter, Disruption Pod

FORTIFICATIONS:
Aegis Defense Line + Quad-gun = 100

Here's what I've been bringing since the Tau codex came out. It just completely craps on typical Dark Eldar lists. Looks like its time to break out those Talos formations and jamming it down their throats via WWP.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 18:29

@lessthanjeff wrote:
If you know you're fighting TAU, yeah.  I really want to use them, but I can't justify them in my lists because I never know who I'll be fighting and most enemies will be immune to its effects.  

I hate that they gave us a lot of ways to attack morale when there are still so many armies that just ignore its effects.  I'd like them to make morale a bigger issue in the game like it is in fantasy and make stuff like ATSKNF (termies only maybe) and fearless more rare.

There is a thread about soulfright in rules discussion. Basically only marines are blankets immune when you dig down into it. So not: GK BA SW or SMs. Daemons, orks, tau, eldar, nids, AM, DE, SoB, crons all have units or entire codex vulnerable to soulfright. If your giving your Archon armor of misery you may as well give him a PGL just incase!
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 01:28

Tau can be a pain. As said before take out markerlights, but if you can, take out heavy hitting stuff. If you can pop that stuff, the markerlights use is limited.

One thing I find useful (playing very regularly against Tau) is to oversaturate and get in their face. If you can force leaderships on to them while being very close they will sweat. Also, makes deepstrike difficult for them (unless farsight is there).

If you concentrate your force into one lump sum and focus on tabling rather than objectives (Maelstrom may be an issue if you cant finish them off!) it can work, This forces them to move to deal with you, allows you to rip apart portions of there army while suffering minimal wounds (LoS depending). Force them to move and adapt to you, force them to misshap, force the to the edge of the table so they might run off, force them to have to abandon objectives.

In my experience this works. You have to go full throttle, table or be tabled,take the risks, suffer for it and try again! IMO.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 03:28

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@lessthanjeff wrote:
If you know you're fighting TAU, yeah.  I really want to use them, but I can't justify them in my lists because I never know who I'll be fighting and most enemies will be immune to its effects.  

I hate that they gave us a lot of ways to attack morale when there are still so many armies that just ignore its effects.  I'd like them to make morale a bigger issue in the game like it is in fantasy and make stuff like ATSKNF (termies only maybe) and fearless more rare.

There is a thread about soulfright in rules discussion. Basically only marines are blankets immune when you dig down into it. So not: GK BA SW or SMs. Daemons, orks, tau, eldar, nids, AM, DE, SoB, crons all have units or entire codex vulnerable to soulfright. If your giving your Archon armor of misery you may as well give him a PGL just incase!

That is an interesting development and I see the distinction you are referring to in the rulebook for fearless and ATSKNF. I'll have to go check out this other thread too to see if some interesting combos have developed. Thanks for the heads up.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: TAU are a problem   TAU are a problem I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 03:51

@lessthanjeff wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@lessthanjeff wrote:
If you know you're fighting TAU, yeah.  I really want to use them, but I can't justify them in my lists because I never know who I'll be fighting and most enemies will be immune to its effects.  

I hate that they gave us a lot of ways to attack morale when there are still so many armies that just ignore its effects.  I'd like them to make morale a bigger issue in the game like it is in fantasy and make stuff like ATSKNF (termies only maybe) and fearless more rare.

There is a thread about soulfright in rules discussion. Basically only marines are blankets immune when you dig down into it. So not: GK BA SW or SMs. Daemons, orks, tau, eldar, nids, AM, DE, SoB, crons all have units or entire codex vulnerable to soulfright. If your giving your Archon armor of misery you may as well give him a PGL just incase!

That is an interesting development and I see the distinction you are referring to in the rulebook for fearless and ATSKNF.  I'll have to go check out this other thread too to see if some interesting combos have developed.  Thanks for the heads up.
Welcome! Smile
The thread is:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10169-soul-fright
Two armies that are hilariously vulnerable are orks and tau!
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