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Jack of Trump
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PostSubject: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 05:34

In my experience Wyches have been a much more effective troop choice in the current rules of the game. The thing that puts me off about warriors is with how firing out of a transport works, you can only move 6 inches for the crew to fire at full ballistic skill. Also the idea of adrenaline junkie women warriors jumping out of hovercrafts running headlong into close combat is AMAZING.

Plus wyches have a better save when in close combat, so im happy to use them as tarpits for almost any unit in the game that wont wipe them in 1 phase.

The last codex was amazing when it came to spamming haywire grenades, no longer. How many wych weapons you can take has changed also, before id take 2 full units of bloodbrides with hydras and add a character into each. Now you need to max out a raider's carrying capacity to get the 3 wych weapons (i think this is silly).

Anyway ive found that tactics needed to change alot in this new edition of the codex, and one of my issues is finding more anti armor. With that being said Wyches without haywire grenades are a better and more enjoyable troop than warriors.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 06:11

You know I don't really disagree. I mean I didn't struggle too much to keep my venoms only moving 6" but the few extra shots is really the only benefit where I feel wyches (kept safely in the back until later game and with the right drugs) could accomplish more on the charge, what with grenades and aforementioned drugs.

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 16:26

In my experiences, there isn't a whole lot of differences between a 5+ save and a 6+ save. So, with the exception of dealing with exploding transports, both fall equally to bolter fire. 4+ is really where things begin to make a difference - which neither Warriors nor Wyches have access to.

Warriors are cheaper and have the ability to shoot. Wyches are better once they get into close combat. Wyches also have access to drugs (which, imo, are a lot better in this book than the last one). The only issue with drugs is that they are not reliable game to game.

In my opinion, I think it boils down to preference. Both troops now are pretty "meh" in my opinion and I can see myself moving to a more min-unit approach just to get access to more fast and elites. Between the other options out there, I think there's plenty of CC options beyond Wyches. Warriors have the option to get a blaster or dark lance which would assist in popping the transports so others can get in and fight.
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The Red King
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 17:08

Idk, wyches may not have haywire anymore but most transports are armor 10 rear so plasma grenades can crack them fairly reliably.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 17:19

I don't think it's so much about which one is better, that's debatable. It's about neither really fills a vital role  but one is 20% cheaper. Now that the initial shock has worn off I'll probably try wyches out but honestly I wasn't often impressed with them before and they haven't become any better.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 17:46

@The Red King wrote:
Idk, wyches may not have haywire anymore but most transports are armor 10 rear so plasma grenades can crack them fairly reliably.

I'd hardly call it reliable. A unit of 10 Wyches that (somehow) manages to get into assault unscathed. 10 attacks, 6.66 hits, 1.11 glances.

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Zoraius
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 18:17

Imho wyches are for venom spam sure there's only 5 of them but after some unit shredding suppressing fire is when they should dismount and charge, just min the snapfires
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 18:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Red King wrote:
Idk, wyches may not have haywire anymore but most transports are armor 10 rear so plasma grenades can crack them fairly reliably.

I'd hardly call it reliable. A unit of 10 Wyches that (somehow) manages to get into assault unscathed. 10 attacks, 6.66 hits, 1.11 glances.
My thoughts exactly but in defence of Adhemar the Heka can take an HwG. So they would inflict 1,5 HP. Still I don't see the point in charging a vehicle without S5+.

I would think that both troops have their merit. Warriors are cheap shooting platform and Wyches can charge an objective and score as long they don't break.
If you manage to get Wyches into CC they even have a decent save.

I am going to experiment with Wyches escorting a killy Succubus.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 20:24

Players who use wyche cult lists are probably a little screwed, but using 1 or 2 squads of wyches for the purpose of hitting choice targets (generally blobs of infantry hiding in cover), which is what I've always used them for (when I wasn't able to use them to haywire the hell out of tanks, that is), should be fine.

I see the optimal unit for this as being a unit of 10 - including 3 with hydra gauntlets, and 1 hekatrix with an agonizer (all in a raider to either deep-strike or zoom them to where they need to be). That gives you 7 pistol shots, and a possible (not counting drugs) 18 normal attacks, 4 ap3 attacks, and 9 shredding ap5 attacks, on the charge.

Of course, overwatch might take out a couple of wyches, but as long as only standard wyches get killed, it shouldn't affect the force of the charge too badly. Positioning, as usual, will be key. If your opponent has guys with flamers in front, make sure that they're closest, so that they'll be catching your pistol shots before the charge. If there is any LOS blocking terrain near the target unit, make sure that almost all of your wyches are behind it - you only need one wyche with LOS in order to announce the charge - overwatch won't be able to wound what it can't see. Your spotter might go down, but then the rest of the unit can come bounding over the terrain piece for the charge without taking overwatch hits.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 22:42

That is some solid advice on positioning kryad. I am only wondering what (outside of template weapons) can hurt so badly on overwatch? I always refer to MEQ when I 'm doing math on the odds. 8 marines will net one dead Wych with FnP. So even without clever positioning the charge would succeed, what is the main point for me with Wyches.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 02:03

Well, when the remaining 9 wyches charge in (assuming that you're using the 10 wyche loadout that I described above), you will get about 3 dead marines at the wyche's initiative step, leaving 5 to strike back, resulting in about 1 more dead wyche. This leaves you with the marines likely tarpitted for another turn, and in a position to inevitably lose, as they will be outnumbered, taking further wounds (the hekatrix will kill 1 marine/turn on average, even if the others don't), and having their ability to hit back limited further with each casualty.

If the marines are led by a sergeant, then have the hekatrix challenge him. If he accepts, he will very likely die. If he doesn't, then he won't be able to attack for that assault phase.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 10:06

Well...two squad of 5 Witches with Heka EM can destroy one veichle. Throwing 2 EM, make another in CC, plus the plasma greneade normal attacks...
And you have already 2 Venoms.

Yes, that's a good choice! In my list I play 2×5 warriors with AM, but 2×5 Witches are more way better! I will do the change.

Thanks, Dark City , that's a good idea Very Happy
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 15:28

I spent some time play testing a wych heavy list with a friend running my own Necron AV13 list. With the absence of haywire grenades, I figured it would be a solid list to compare old vs new. I augmented the wyches with 3 Ravagers, 2x6 Reavers, and a Razorwing.

From the game, I am actually more prone to include Wyches now than Warriors. Being able to twin-link their pistols using raider's splinter racks is handy as was throwing a Plasma Grenade. Using the Animus Vitae was also useful (though is a 50/50 since it's only a S4 weapon) since Wyches need Furious Charge from PFP. Also - combat drugs, in my opinion, got a lot better in this new book. Lastly, Fear from the Relic Armor is really useful thanks to it's -2LD.

The game ended in a draw but it was pretty much a blood bath of pain and it ended up changing my opinion. Warriors are good but poison 4+ has it's drawbacks as we all know. Wyches, while S3, have ways to become S4. Both need the enemy on the ground to be truly useful so they need to be supported. After last night's game, I'm prone to be using Wyches unless I'm running min-troop builds.

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 17:49

You need both. Warriors to go monster hunting and Wyches to lock down what will take the warriors too long to kill.

But funny how Wyches have suddenly gone from nerf/leave on the shelf to bff status.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 18:05

@PainReaver wrote:
You need both. Warriors to go monster hunting and Wyches to lock down what will take the warriors too long to kill.

But funny how Wyches have suddenly gone from nerf/leave on the shelf to bff status.
That is a very good point on warriors and Wyches.
To me Wyches are now what they should be.
I'm in favour of 10 Wyches 3x Hydras and Agonizer Heka.
The upgrades give you a better chance to wound in CC and thus lock the enemy. Preventing shooting or charge in your shooty units.
So a well rounded army with grots, reavers, scourges, Venoms Talos Chronos probe and Wyches of course. I still might want Ravagers but not sure about the load out.
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 18:26

The point on wyches is that they outscale Warriors in the lategame.
At turn 6 you suddenly see fragile khorne berzerkers for only 10 points.

The problems here are:

1) until turn 4 (fnp 5+ and FC) Wyches are a burden. No kill potential, fragile and point intensive
2) the lategame doesnt last very long. 50% of all games (not to mention early victorys when tabled) end before turn 6.
3) Warriors are average/good in every gameturn
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 21:29

On paper and first look, I've never been a fan of Wyches (and not just saying that because they're a CC unit either). My stance on them have changed since they exceed the use of warriors later in the game. To be honest, I am not a fan of either but I can see more usefulness out of Wyches for all things not MC-related. Warriors are pretty good no matter the game turn; however, wyches get better as soon as "turn 4" hits on the PFP chart.

Klaivex Charondyr summarized the issues with late-game very well.
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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 15:33

I also think that if you want wyches to work in some way, you'll need to start looking at ways to ensure they'll have FnP and Furious Charge on the turn they assault. So keeping them in reserves while your units like warriors in venoms/reavers/scourges create your turns 1-2 board presence by hiding, and taking key shots here and there. Or your units like the grotesques/taloi etc for difficulty in getting rid of.

Then start finding ways to bump up your PfP level. - sticking a Haemy with them (could take the relic that gives fleet from the covens supplement so he can at least stick with the wyches when they assault) and things like the Animus Vitae (how I wish this thing was a blast instead of a single shot)

So that when you start rolling for reserves from turn two you get them into a safe position for next turn, the wyches will be making a turn 3 charge at the earliest where they will then have FnP at the very least, then furious charge if with a Haemy or you got lucky with your Animus Vitae.

Also having something to absorb overwatch for them would be fantastic, like a Talos of a unit of grotesques (though at that point, are the wyches really needed in that combat?)
EDIT: Actually, a unit of jinking Reavers would be great for this, have them go in first, absorb the overwatch and then in your opponents next turn, have the reavers hit and run out of the combat - maybe a bit overkill?

And ofc, like Krayd said, positioning and abusing/using LOS blocking terrain is key to getting these girls through the overwatch safely.

Either way, I don't think wyches will be used for turn 2 charges anymore and will need to be held in reserves or held out of line of sight for the first turn or two, and will certainly need ways to manipulate the PfP level. Which is neither a good nor bad thing yet, we'll have to see how the changes pan out. Either way, wyches did indeed lose a lot of their steam, and not just from the loss of haywire - they've been losing their steam ever since the game started focusing more on shooting. But the assault phase is still important, and wyches are still pretty great at tarpitting, even if they aren't as good at it as they were (R.I.P shardnet and impaler)
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 15:44

Quote :
Either way, I don't think wyches will be used for turn 2 charges anymore and will need to be held in reserves or held out of line of sight for the first turn or two

Certainly they wont assault alone. There is alternative however - they may do just fine if something like 9 Reavers open up a charge for them. They pair really nice - Reavers HoW and shooting will soften up the target, Wyches will follow and Heka can kill some more models, thus preserving Reavers, if they assaulted in the cover. Reavers can then break off, and Wyches can kill whats left.

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Caldria
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 17:17

^ exactly what I was thinking, seems like an awesome combo between the two wych cult units. Reavers got so good this codex imo. (I would probably still only send the wyches in after they have FnP 5+ though)

bit of a side note: Can the Reavers jink overwatch shots? I can't find in the rulebook where it says they can or can't - It just says when they are targetted for a shooting attack they may elect to jink.

I would assume overwatch counts as being targetted by a shooting attack, regardless of not being in the shooting phase? Seems like a silly question, but just want to make sure. Because the Reavers would have a 3+ cover save to absorb those overwatch shots then, making them the perfect "absorb" unit for any of our squishy assault guys really - especially being able to hit and run out of the combat and continue on their merry way now that our other unit is stuck in combat safely.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 18:38

Quote :
Can the Reavers jink overwatch shots?

Yep.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 19:44

Count, aren't plasma grenades strength 6? So 6.6 hits should become roughly 3.3 glances against rear armor ten right?

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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 20:29

No, they are S4. Krak nades are S6 (standard for all Space Marines)
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skullmonkeyz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 21:25

but they are AP - right, so you can still get your armor save! no FNP though geek
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 14:44

One thought came to me late last night.

Would you perceive Wyches differently if they were joined by a Covens Supplement Haemy?

Still gives +1 turn on PFP only he would use the supplement's PFP while the Wyches would use the codex version. This would technically give the unit Fearless turn 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Warriors   Wyches vs Warriors I_icon_minitime

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