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Judgex83
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PostSubject: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 4:14 pm

I currently run a 1500 list that looks like this

HQ
Homonculus with agoniser and liquifier gun to give my incubi FNP and can be killy with 3 agoniser attacks
homonculus with hex rifle mainly to give a unit of warriors FNP
homonculus no upgrades to give my trueborn FNP

Troop
2x 10 warriors with splinter cannon
with raiders that have Dark lances,splinter racks and flickerfields

Fast attack
5 scourge with 2 dark lances

Elite
4 trueborn with 4 blasters
with a venom with no upgrades

heavy
parasite engine with soul vortex and spirit probe because hes still a S5 power weapon
void bomber with no upgrades

Now my question is what can i move around to make room for a small unit of grotesques? I cant help but giddy at the thought of 3 or 4 of them coming out of a webway and smushing everything.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 4:34 pm

Immediate thoughts I have are thus;

0. Your title is misleading Wink
1. There's no real point to give either the Warriors or Trueborn FNP.
2. Your list as currently set up doesn't want to try to work with a WWP.
3. The Grots will basically fill the same role as the Parasite Engine.

So, to my mind, the easiest way to make it happen would be to drop 2 Haemons, move the Agoniser Haemon over to the Grots, drop the Cronos, get the Grots a ride in a Raider, Bob's your uncle.

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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 4:40 pm

no reason to give my main tank hunting unit FNP? I disagree. I agree maybe on warriors its a waste but the hex rifle is awesome when it takes out a 250 pt HQ choice as it has (typhus) but im not in love with it so that ill do and my title wasnt completly misleading since the title was my main question Razz
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 6:33 pm

Why does your main tankhunting unit need FNP? (also, your Void Bomber isn't your main tankhunter?)

When they are inside their Venom they don't need FNP at all - because they can't be shot at.
When the Venom is wrecked they don't need FNP.
If the Venom explodes they'll suffer 1.3 wounds after armor
With the Haem in the Venom, statistically they'll suffer .8 wounds after armor and FNP. (remember +1 Haem means +1 die for the enemy to roll to hurt the unit inside)
After their vehicle explodes they're going to have a harder time using their weapons as effectively.

So;

You're spending 60 points to give the unit .4 less wounds on the off chance a vehicle explodes instead of just wrecking.

Yeah, you can do it, and it *does* make them tougher, I'll admit. I just don't think it makes them tougher to the point it's worth that many points and an extra killpoint that's going to spend the game not helping kill anything.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 6:35 pm

Just as an alternate consideration you could put NS and FF on the Voidbomber and make it ignore 33% of all hits and basically immune to melta and bolters and would still save 40 points. I think that would protect your tankhunting better.

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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 7:22 pm

I learnt a long time ago that your main tank hunting unit shouldnt be a tank since a lucky shot takes it out and even a not so lucky shot takes out are vehicles. I will try the unit without the homonculus and thor665 IG is very popular at my store and I came to the conclusion that NS is borderline usless in my store but thanks for the suggestions guys.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 8:11 pm

NS is still very useful vs. melta vets. NS is actually best at messing with short range shooting - not long range.
Though, yeah, I don't use them much myself.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 8:28 pm

How do you find the Warriors in the Raider? I used to run a similar setup with the splinter racks, and it's great for firepower which I liked, but I kept being charged after shooting. I've now switched to Trueborn+carbines (2 with cannons), less the racks because the 18" range and more dice stop me being charged after one quick blast.

Oh and I've run Grotesques before and with the type of list you are running, they wouldn't be a good fit. Plus I'm not convinced at 35points each they represent best value in a 1500 pt list.
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Judgex83
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15, 2011 9:09 pm

I never disembarked my warriors until the raider was either immobilized or wrecked. I value the rerolls to much to ever get them out on purpose. I never take advantage of the rapid fire on them unless I can be sure im going to destroy the unit because alot of units have melee weapons that can pop a raider with ease and nobody wants to give up a dark lance. I like the shardcarbine aswell but it doesnt benefit from splinter racks.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 10:18 am

My friend is makign a Haemonculi theme list with Urien and Grots, and he's had a lot of success with them. Aside from s10 weapons, they're veyr hard to kill, and while they lack power weapons, they hit very hard, especially since Urien can give them +1 s for 5 points per model.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 1:52 pm

Grotesques are fun and I find them very unique compared to the other elites as they do very well against both armor and infantry. I am not going to comment on using them out of a portal as I have not tried them that way but I am sure they will draw plenty of fire and if that is what you want them to do when they first emerge.

My success with them is using them as a distraction unit in a portal deploying list but they are not coming out of the portal – they are in a raider being shot at the opponent “flat-out” and aether sailed straight into them, for two reasons:

They need to get as close as possible to the target I want them to go at because they do not have “fleet”.
I want them to draw as much fire as possible, explosions tickle and they are sitting in 4+ cover and usually fearless.

With Urien and taking the upgrade I have them at strength 7 on the charge and that has made them my most reliable tank busting unit than any other in the list – I believe they have busted more vindicators than any other tank hunting unit has popped armor ever. So no doubt they can handle armor it is just I do not think you can do it that successfully coming out of a portal. My suggestion to you would be to skip the portal idea and put them on a raider with a haemy or two. You do not really need Urien as long as you can maintain the furious charge advantage – I prefer 2 IC’s in this unit but running 1 Haemy as a baby sitter will have to do at this point level.

As for the unit, I find 3 to be a good combat size (one plain, one with a liquefier and one being the aberration) and since you are at a lower point level I think 3 is a slam-dunk. I have tried 4 when I first started and nothing wrong with that other than running 3 I found no difference, it was cheaper and I got to enjoy using wound allocating shenanigans to the fullest. Face it, anything that can kill 3 grotesques in close combat can kill 4 of them as well so save yourself a good chunk of points and keep them at three.

Now I like the Aberration, not necessarily for the leadership bump (which is laughable) but rather for the extra attack and the ability to get an additional attack on top of that if you give it another weapon. This is where I have seen people take different things but I am sold on the flesh gauntlet as the weapon has been useful due to the targets I have been sending them against. Getting that re-roll for the poison attack even when assaulting most MC’s is darn useful. Granted there is an armor save for the opponent I find the simple death by armor save method works when you got Urien in there doing it as well. I am not sure if I would change that at 1500 points (and no Urien) so that will have to be a decision up to you.

Where would you squeeze them in? If there are incubi then I think the Grotesques would have to replace them. Grotesques escort just as nicely as incubi and with all the tokens this squad usually has it’s quite nice. I will not say grotesques should replace trueborn as the trueborn unit is way too efficient – usually you would drop the grotesques to get another trueborn unit if anything.

I am not sold on using the grotesque squad as an wwp escort but many have said they do very well with that. Perhaps if you cannot afford a fancy grotesque squad for close combat you could make them a little cheaper and use them as meat shields for your wwp deployer - currently, you have nothing that would make a good escort .

I am curious about the parasites role in the list and once the grotesques get added to the list there is one more unit that already has a token – perhaps upgrading to a Talos would add more punch to the list and take some fire off the grotesques .

Again, not too fond of using grotesques at this point level but if you just want to get a feel for them I would skip the portal idea and just put them on a raider escorting an IC.

Good luck and happy hunting!!!

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 2:55 pm

a buddy uses 8 of them out of portal with Urien.

They beat face, open armor, kick butt and send Plague marines crying in the fetal position. its pretty sick.

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PreacherOfDeath
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 7:33 pm

OH YES, they're worth it.

I like 3 with a liquifier. Pretty sexy.

Haemonculus gives them S6, I5 on the charge. EWW.

ShadowsRevenge and I agree that they make scary bodyguards for Lelith.

WWP is my preferred delivery method. Raider with Enhanced Aethersails works nicely too.


Last edited by PreacherOfDeath on Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 7:36 pm

@Thor665 wrote:
Just as an alternate consideration you could put NS and FF on the Voidbomber and make it ignore 33% of all hits and basically immune to melta and bolters and would still save 40 points. I think that would protect your tankhunting better.

Already nearly immune. It's 4" from the base's edge to the hull, so you have to be less than 2 inches away from the base - assaulting it is easier.

But getting out of Assault Cannon range, or getting the edge on Lascannons? Absolutely!
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeTue Aug 16, 2011 8:51 pm

Well...that does start to get into the grey area of the rules where it's impossible to disembark from a Vendetta because you can't put the IG within 2" of an access point.

My local play environment runs it differently - but if yours does it that way - yes, most flyers are functionally immune to melta.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17, 2011 12:55 am

Totally on board with Grumpy Kwi on this-I run 4 grotesques with an aberation(venom blade) in a raider+Haemonculus babysitter for smaller games/Urien if you are up around 2000pts. I call it the meet wagon. As Grumpy Kwi wrote:drive it up the middle and let the fun begin. Scares the crap out of most opponents and buys you time for your other units to maneuver with less fire on them. I prefer to run units that can't get raiders out of WWP's to give them a target to charge the first turn that they appear. Grotesques in the middle of your opponent's army on the first turn allows you to deploy your WWP more effectively by taking heat off of the character carrying it(I call this the 'look at the monkey' tactic:distract them with one hand and punch them in the back of the head with the other).

Admittedly though I am a longtime Ork player and really like the grotesques as being used like an even better Nob unit.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17, 2011 12:25 pm

Hey Evil - have you run Grotesques out of a WWP yet?

I would like to hear how they fare when they just walk on out of a portal.

Totally agree with you as well on the use the of the WWP - 2 portals is like buying a raider for units that can't get one. I do not believe you have to put most of your army in the portal in order to make it work but it should be more than 2 or 3 units otherwise just buy a raider unit.

I am thinking of doing an experiment with 2 squads of Grotesques using the same tactic in rushing the enemy - very curious how that would work out as you would have to drop the wwp idea altogether and make an ultimate need for speed "rush" list. 2 squads of Grotesques inches from the enemy line is appealing.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17, 2011 4:13 pm

I ran a squad of 5 out of a WWP with Urien in tow Grumpy, and they did spetacularly. They were largely ingored the first few games, with my taloi/chronos taking all the shots, after multi-assaulting 2 preds and a las/plas back though, they have become everyones first target, meaning my pain engines are able to do what they do best, wreck face.

I must admit though Urien is almost needed if they are on foot. His 1 free wound a turn is really nice to have, keeping your grots alive longer.

Also I ran this idea by Preacher, but what do you guys think of grots being a bodyguard for lelith??? my problem with Lelith is that she is mediocre for her points, but is really good when she gets two pain tokens. With 4 grots in a raider, suddenly what she lacks in strength is made up for in the grots, and what they lack (a pw) is made up with her insane number of attacks. On Top of that she will start with 1 pain token, literally winning half the battle to make her decent. I might have to try it after this whole escalation thingy...

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17, 2011 4:23 pm

Grumpy Kwi-haven't tried that yet. I prefer to use the meat wagon rush on the first turn to start the panic show early. I'm sure they would be just plain nasty coming out of the WWP, but I don't want to rely on reserve rolls to get them on the board and have the distraction come too late while my other fragile units get shot up.

A two unit list speed rushing turn one? You evil bastard! I like it!(though my wallet and wife say NO)

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 17, 2011 9:15 pm

im going to run a 4 man unit with uriel now ive decided on the scissorhands since the +2 str 6 attacks is awesome IMO. Now im trying to decide if giving them a liquifier gun is worth it.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 18, 2011 12:22 am

I run the the aberation with a poison weapon. Cheaper, and you wound on a 2+ with re-rolls.

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 24, 2011 11:22 am

We ran a grot bomb in our last Team turney, but had Bad luck with saves The other Guy did.
After only loosing 3 csm to 25 wounds the rockets made, He managed to survive all The 17 wounds The grots made. Then the grots where overrun by The csm after failling there moral check...

Funny though that The Unit camp that would reall benefit from an pw, is Not allowed to take One XD

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 24, 2011 11:58 am

I don't know if the other Dark Eldar would trust them with one...

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25, 2011 1:46 am

I think they are worth it.

I know folks have mentioned how good they would be as a Bodyguard for Lelith, but I'm working on a list with Malys leading a unit of Grots along. She has 8 PW attacks on the charge and makes the Grots immue to Psychics as well as the potential for repositioning them and/or another unit(s) prior to the start of the game all for a lot less than Lelith. Right now its looking like Malys, a Haem leading 4 Grots in a boat (FNP and FC).

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PostSubject: Re: grotesques worth it?   grotesques worth it? I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 31, 2011 1:59 pm

I have been curious about starting a list focused around 2 grotesque hammers (4 in raiders with HQ support). I always figured Urien + Something would be the best build in this case, but what are some other good options at around 2k pts. I feel that at least haemunculi must be taken to give grots FC (so at least 2) but what about for an alternative HQ?

I thought maybe an archon with agonizer and shadowfield would be the best bet?
Or is malys really worth her points?

I do feel that someone with a power weapon is necessary. Haemonculi are OK, but don't really have sufficient attacks. This also means that 1 squad won't have any/many power weapon attacks. Is it even viable to attempt a build with 2 units of grots?

I could always substitute more wracks/wyches in for their points, or maybe even some blasterborn. I just figured grots are very threatening, 2 units would be doubly so. Any thoughts?
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