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 HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]

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PostSubject: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 02:20

This will be my on-going thinktank that will compile any army list that I can think of to play at 1850.  You guys will probably know by now that I wrote a Dark Eldar review a couple of days ago.  For those of you that don't, you can find it here.

I've been playing Dark Eldar for a very long time (14 years now), and I have been very successful both in a casual setting, and in a competitive setting.  What you might not know, is that I have done it all these years playing pure Kabal aka no Haemonculi units at all.  I do not like the look, the fluff, the feel, or the look, yes, that gets hit twice of the slimy nasty Haemonculi units.

You can find many of my articles on my gaming blog, and most of the lists and tactics there will still apply with this new book.  Most of the things you read about in this thread will be mirrored on the blog as well.

So without further ado, let's get down to business, to defeat the huns (basically everyone that's not the Dark Kin).

Here are some key notes that I will write out first:

-The HQ section is really tricky for me because right now, I do not like the Succubus in her current place.  She went up in price, lost a lot of cheap weapon options, and the newer weapon options seems like you need the stars to be aligned to get any real profit.  The reason why I took her in the past is because 1. Wyches were good, 2. Thus allowing me to have a reason to take them and put them into combat, and 3. She was cheaper with better weapon options.

-The Archon is not looking so bad in comparison.  Sure, his Huskblade now sucks, he lost combat drugs, and he's pretty much a more expensive and useless version of his Craftworld cousin who comes with a 4++, an awesome ability and is only 10 points more.  When you compare this to the fact we have to buy the Clonefield, you pretty much want to torture the GW designers, but its OK, let's move on.  So you look at the Archon and you see a couple of neat things.  The first one is the Shadowfield being able to tank all the shots in any given phase:  Let's say he's in front of a unit of Wyches (for some reason) and your opponent opens an entire squads of Tacs on him.  Cool, take it all on the Archon, for his shield doesn't go away until the end of the phase.  Sure, he might die horribly, but this option is still there.  He is also the cheapest option to buy a WWP, which can lead to all kinds of cool possibilities.  I'm not sure if I like the investment factor yet, as +35 points for it is still much better for Eldar than it is for us (mainly because they can hit harder via Wraithguard and Fire Dragons).  Lastly, he is a Blaster caddy, very cheap, 75 points gives you an HQ that can shoot a lance from 18" away at BS7.

-Combat obj-sec still comes in the way of Wyches.  I have 40 of the damn suckers and I'll be damned if someone will tell me they're useless.  Sure, they're not as multi-purposed, but hopefully on a decent drug roll you can still apply 1 unit of these girls into someone's face with decent chances of holding them up or killing some of them.  These girls are also the only way to deliver a combat Archon (hurr hurr) or Succubus, but I would much rather do a Succubus because of her high I which will allow you to sweep units much more easily.  Just be careful who you're actually challenging and be careful on the layout of your characters.

-Then comes the workhorse of the list itself:  Min Raiders used for capping and Lance support, and then fully upgraded Gunboats that come with all the bells and whistles.  Before I talk about this in more depth, I want to touch upon how I feel about Night Shields.  To me, they're very expensive for +1 cover.  If you guys are used to having a blank board where your DE are being shot all the time, this might be worth the investment, but if you consider the fact that they're literally a quarter of the price of that paper airplane Raider that you're flying, you might as well face the facts here.  That vehicle is going to die, either by sheer number of glance/pens or there's Ignore Cover in the game.  In order for you to make a cost-effective choice whether or not to take Night Shields, you have to analyze your meta:  Do you play with a lot of ruins and builds and cover that will allow you to gain natural cover, do you have a lot of opponents that take Tau or Eldar (Ignore Cover), are you in open ground a lot?  All of these things matter when you're making this choice.

-Now, onto the actual discussion about Warriors.  You will always take a Blaster first and foremost.  Whether or not you rock them in a cheap ass Raider boat, they will be a mini-Ravager for you that can reach out and touch something with high-powered shots.  Otherwise, they will be mainstay damage dealers focused on killing enemy infantry.  This means that you're taking a full unit, Blaster, Splinter Cannon (maybe), inside a Raider with at least Aethersails and the mandatory Splinter Racks.  The main difference from this is that one unit is a solid support piece and is cheaper, and the other is an expensive (for what it does) infantry-shredder that makes Tyranids slimey tears.

-Venoms are still in, in fact, a lot of people urge that they're the thing to go.  I, however, completely disagree with this because the meta is filled with a lot of Tau big-suits, flying Demon FMC, double Dakkaflyrant, and Mechdar with plenty of WS.  You need Lances in order to touch some of these things, or at least threaten them with invul/cover saves and not their standard armor save.  This is why I like to be lance-heavy on the ships, and poison-heavy on the occupants.  With WWP in the game, reserve manipulation via Eldar allies (boo-hiss), and Venoms in our inventory, we will hopefully have the tools for the job regardless of matchup.

-You must vow to always take Aethersails on every single one of your vehicles if you can spare the points.  Why?  Because this is the best single upgrade to be given to our codex, as the thought of 24" consistent TB for 5 points gives even the saddest Archon a raging hard-on.  This will allow you to relocate behind enemy vehicles from a poor DS, find cover behind the most unlikely of places, or allow you to fully take advantage of obj-sec when you need it most.  DE is all about mobility and no single upgrade captures this as well as this 5 point upgrade.  In fact, it's such a given that you should just pretend all your vehicles costs 5 points more, minus Ravagers of course.

-So which units are actually useful for the purposes of this discussion?  I encourage you guys to FIGHT me on this.  As it stands..

Archon - Viable, one of our few HQ choices, has some good stuff going for him mentioned above.
Archon Court - I just don't like these guys because it further compounds the fact that you're trying to keep things cheap and min-max cost.  If you think the AP3 flamers will benefit your army because of your meta, please, by all means keep them.
Succubus - One of our few HQs and viable because of her CC abilities.
Lelith Hesperax - Too expensive for she offers IMO.  If only her A League Apart just flat out re-roll hits and wounds she would be a much better buy.
Drazhar - Too expensive.
Kabalite Warriors - Our bread and butter unit that can fit anywhere and in any way.
Wyches - The only way to deliver our CC boys and girls, but they were nerfed themselves to be not as multi-functional.  I am fine with that, as long as you guys are willing to accept this fate as well.
Incubi - No grenades, no buy.  Their high-I killing potential is literally wasted if their defenders can kill T3 3+ models (which should be everyone).
Mandrakes - They're ugly, no one owns these guys, but they got better and can potentially harass enemy troops.  I bet they're meta-dependent because I play in a pretty mechanized meta, these guys are no good for me.
Beastmasters - With the Baron or someone to tank for them, I think they got a lot worse.  The lack of WWP utility also hurts them a lot.
Raiders - Bread and butter transport with anti-tank potential.
Venoms - Bread and butter transport with anti-infantry potential.
Hellions - Garbage units, don't even bother.
Reavers - Yes, these guys are really good.  They lose a lot of movement opportunities for damage, but they got cheaper and have Rending HoW.  Not bad overall.
Razorwing - Got 5 points cheaper if you take them with Lances, and I encourage all of you to do so because you need something to shoot things out of the air.  Keep them cheap, buy multiples.
Scourges - One of the best things we have our book as you guys probably noticed.  Haywires is a solid answer but so are DS Heat Lances.  However, you have to admit that these guys are still bare-naked ladies with the amount of protection they have going for them.
Ravagers - The Ravager is still viable despite its many nerfs.  The lack of Aerial Assault will hurt them greatly since that can be the difference between a side-shot vs. front, cover or no cover.  Some people seem to think that Scourges will replace these guys, but I don't think so.  The AV11 will put them out of kill potential for Bolters and immune to small-arms fire that can threaten Scourges.
Voidraven Bombers - Take them cheap and keep them that way.  Just buy the 160 stock and they should be worth their points with their Blast Lances.  Void Lances are also very solid at killing enemy armor and flyers, so the decision is whether or not you want to subject them to AT/Flyer or killing ground units.

OK, enough with the boring, now onto actual list construction.  With each of these lists, I'll note some thinking behind it and hopefully draw some discussions from it.  Here's what I'm currently using:

Updated: 3/13/15

Quote :
1850 Pure DE
DE CAD*
22 KP

HQ:
Llama = 10

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance = 115
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 3x Blaster, Venom SC = 165
5x Trueborn, 3x Blaster, Venom SC = 165

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Hold the lube. 31 total Dark Lances in the army.

Quote :
1850 Pure DE
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster, Haywire = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

The Venoms here are interchangeable with the 5x Warrior config in Lancer (Raider with Lance).

Quote :
1850 Eldar Allies
18 KP

HQ:
Archon, Blaster = 75
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/SR = 170
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*

This is my DE with Eldar splash elements.  The Autarch brings in better reserve consistency, while the WS and Night Spinner help bulk up the rest of the army.

Quote :
1850 Eldar Allies, no flyers
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Haywire = 100
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*

FAST:
5x Fire Dragons, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 255*

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*

Another take on the same list, but with WWP to guide the Fire Dragons onto their target.  Both HQs go in the FD squad to hopefully blow up 2 targets in one turn.

+++

There are tons of more lists I plan on constructing, so I'll be actively this thread periodically as I flood the page with lists and ideas.  This is only the surface area guys, there's still tons of lists to be had with Scourges, WWP play, Eldar allies, heavy-Eldar emphasis, the lists go on and on.

I welcome every one of you share some of your lists so we can collaborate together.

Reserved.

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Last edited by HERO on Fri Mar 13 2015, 17:40; edited 11 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 03:35

I disagree with the Incubi verdict. Sure they don't have grenades now, but they do work well with a Succubi, due to unity of weapons, glaive assuming. Succubi lands the first attacks, which limits the retaliation, and then tank the (now smaller) retaliation in return and Incubi finish off. By the time you get into combat, they'll at least have FNP.

HERO, here's how i'm running mine

Succubus- Glaive, Armor of Misery- 110 (+ HWG in 1k games)
Incubi- 4x, Klaivex, Venom 2x SC- 155
Wyches- 10x, 2x Hydra, Hek w/ Ag, DC Raider w/ Sails, NS- 225 (removed in 1k/1.25k pt games)
Warriors- 10x, SC, DC Raider w/ NS, SR- 180
Warriors- 10x, SC, DC Raider w/ NS, SR- 180
Scourges- 5x, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Reavers- 9x, 3x CC, 3x HL, AC w/ Ag- 254 (removed in 1k games)
Ravager- 3x DL, NS- 140
Ravager- 3x DL, NS- 140
Talos- 2x, 2x TL HWB- 250 (added in 1.75k games)

Can use either RSR/CAD detachments.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 05:27

Quote :
I disagree with the Incubi verdict. Sure they don't have grenades now, but they do work well with a Succubi, due to unity of weapons, glaive assuming. Succubi lands the first attacks, which limits the retaliation, and then tank the (now smaller) retaliation in return and Incubi finish off. By the time you get into combat, they'll at least have FNP.

You might as well go big or go home with that mentality then, because even if they get into combat and sustained no losses from Overwatch, they are still T3 with 3+ saves. Hopefully you're not charging something like Space Wolves and just basic marines, because getting hit before you attack sets them back a long way.

Let me ask you this though, what's your reasoning behind the Ravagers and Night Shields? Do you think that's a good use of points? Why no Aethersails on your troop transports?

I would probably keep the Reavers cheaper, keeping them as 9x with Heat Lance would be my go-to.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 07:26

My reasoning on the Warriors not having the Aethersails. They won't be able to shoot on that turn. And the corollary of driving them 6" towards your intended target, is also delivering your Warriors 6" to rapid fire/assault. My Warriors are going to support my assault troops anyway, so doesn't really matter. But I do see the point of extra 6" towards cover, but my list doesn't have the room for it, unless I strip the shields off it. A Ravager could also find an Aethersail useful because they can cap empty objectives.

Incubi shouldn't be sent towards ordinary grey hunters, or at the very least full squad Grey Hunters. Because Area Terrain no longer provides standing cover saves (only improving go to ground cover saves). If I needed to assault something in cover, Wyches can land the attack first and then Incubi can jump in afterwards. Incubi w/ Furious Charge can wreck a tank (So do Grotesques, but moot point).

Ravagers are not entirely bad. Sure they're not good either, and in any case I'm more using it to do some early hull point damage. If I find a good cover, i could stack with the night shields. Beside the point that i'm only running 1 unit of scourges (as a land raider assassin)

I want my reavers with caltrops and champion w/ agonizer because their cc value is only on the charge. 3 heat lances will down a few first, or potentially even cause the unit to fall back, in which case i'll use my assault move. If not that charge will make them fall back, or sweeping advance the unit entirely, in which case i'll ready up for another assault.

Having a big unit of Incubi just serves to paint a giant bullseye on the vehicle.

If I were to do comp flavored RSR detachment, I'd run this.

Succubus- Glaive, Armor of Misery
Grotesque- 4x, DC Raider w/ Sails and NS
Warrior- 10x, SC, DC Raider w/ SR and NS
Warrior- 10x, SC, DC Raider w/ SR and NS
Scourge- 5x, 4 HWB
Scourge- 5x, 4 HWB
Razorwing- 2x DL, Mscythe
Razorwing- 2x DL, Mscythe
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 15:45

Looks fine to me!

Do you think Night Shields is a meta-subject? What about running Ravagers with Scourges, or would that be an overload on AT?

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 15:57

@HERO wrote:
Do you think Night Shields is a meta-subject?  

It's very meta dependent i think yes, clearly we know that Wave Serpent Spam is a top tier competitive choice, and ignores cover is an important mechanic against us. The meta I play in however has literally no serpent spam armies, there's one jetbike eldar army and that's it. Couple of guard armies and one Tau. Lots of Chaos, Couple of Nids, Orks, one Mechanicum, one guard Tank company, a sprinkle of marines of various kinds, one sisters and one grey knights. It's generally a friendly environment and people who spam stuff don't get many games, though there's a core element that are capable of very competitive play providing there's agreement to take competitive lists beforehand. As a result, night shields are going to be very useful for me against the majority of my opponents.

Other metas with much more Tau, Guard and Serpents I'd probably think differently and look to keep things cheap and deep strike more, possibly going double CAD to bring more WWP's

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 18:02

I too am not a big fan of the coven choices.  I've included Haemonculi in the past as PFP buffs & because fluff-wise it made sense to me that an archon would bring his pet haemonculus along on a raid... but I've never used any of the other selections from the covens.

That being said, the list I plan on trying out at 1750 is

Archon w/ blaster & venom

(5) incubi w/ claivex, venom

(5) kabilites, blaster & venom
(10) kabilites, raider w/ racks
(10) kabilites, raider w/ racks

(6) reavers, (2) caltrops
(6) reavers, (2) caltrops
(5) scourge, (4) SW*
(5) scourge, (4) SW*
razorwing w/ lances

(2) Ravagers w/ dissies
ravager w/ lances

plan would be to use the scourge as primary AT turn one & two - using (* probably HWB) to strip 2-3 HP from enemy tanks and allowing the ravager / razorwing to finish off anything they don't manage to kill outright.

I don't see putting shooting weapons on the reavers as being points well spent.  100% of their survivability comes from jinking so I imagine doing that a lot & thus snapshooting those heat lances - doesn't seem a smart investment.  I view reavers as using their JSJ from behind a piece of BLOS cover until they get an opportunity to hit something out in the open - even with HOW, charging into cover is suicide with only a 5+/5++ save... with the caltrops, you can at least run headlong into a tank if necessary when no BLOS terrain is handy & you've had to jink.

I'm honestly not sold on scourge at this time, but I've got the models so I'll be trying them out (worst thing is they'll end up going back to being swooping hawks...).  As primary AT, I'm just not convinced that T3, 4+ will see them last past turn one - EVERYTHING can kill them with ease.

I have to say, I'm loving incubi simply for the klaivex - potentially 8 attacks (9 with rage) on the charge at WS6, I6, S5 (furious charge) AP2 is insane.  Sure he's only a single wound T3, 3+ model, but he's only 30 points!!!  As I've never really experimented with the coven stuff before I'm not sure who will perform better overall, these guys or grotesques.... time will tell I guess.

I'd also consider taking a unit of (5) lhamians because that 50 point throw-away squad can really bring the pain to any MC out there - those 50 points bring about a 40% chance to slide an ID hit through a 3+ save the turn they charge, and at only 50 points, if they fail.... meh?
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 18:39

I like these internal blogs tdc has going on, really makes it feel like the dark city. I'll be interested to see how this one develops.

On night shields I agree they are meta dependent but also list dependent. For example even against serpents if you have multiple melta units in reserve they will be much more hesitant to drop their shields, so you can influence your opponents decisions with list design and deployment. Besides how often have you seen a player skimp on holofields.. it's definitely a relief when you only need to beat a 4+.
On the flip side assault is a thing. Players are slow to change direction but assault is strong, more so now with LoW, and really the best way to deal with skimmers outside of perfect timing or simply bringing your own serpents.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 21:58

Man, how do you guys feel about Trueborn?  Aside from actually riding in the Venom, I don't see a huge need for these guys at all?

My reasoning:  Price out the cost of 5x Fire Dragons to 5 Trueborn with Blasters.  Aside from the range, Fire Dragons are better in almost every single way, even more so that we now have access to WWP to drop these guys where ever they want.  AP1 is huge, so is the melta as it allows us to hit and kill a larger array of targets, and they all come with Meltabombs.

The price for the Trueborn with Blasters is truly off-putting.  If you take 5 in a Venom, with 4x Blasters, you're staring at 170 without any upgrades.  That is a lot of points.  They have no role in a WWP setting either as long as Eldar are battle-brothers.  Why would you ever drop Trueborn with the WWP and an Archon vs. 5x Fire Dragons?

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@HERO wrote:
Do you think Night Shields is a meta-subject?  

It's very meta dependent i think yes, clearly we know that Wave Serpent Spam is a top tier competitive choice, and ignores cover is an important mechanic against us. The meta I play in however has literally no serpent spam armies, there's one jetbike eldar army and that's it. Couple of guard armies and one Tau. Lots of Chaos, Couple of Nids, Orks, one Mechanicum, one guard Tank company, a sprinkle of marines of various kinds, one sisters and one grey knights. It's generally a friendly environment and people who spam stuff don't get many games, though there's a core element that are capable of very competitive play providing there's agreement to take competitive lists beforehand. As a result, night shields are going to be very useful for me against the majority of my opponents.

Other metas with much more Tau, Guard and Serpents I'd probably think differently and look to keep things cheap and deep strike more, possibly going double CAD to bring more WWP's

I think because of this more casual-friendly meta, your DE will do quite well.  Can I see your list?

What point range does it look like?  Can I see what your list looks like at 1500 and at 1850?  Mainly because I want to see the power scaling of the army at that point range, which offensive options will you add and which you will cut.

For example, check out this article on my personal blog:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/03/my-dark-eldars-scalingpower.html

It will explain power scaling in relation to army points in greater detail.

@clever handle wrote:
I too am not a big fan of the coven choices.  I've included Haemonculi in the past as PFP buffs & because fluff-wise it made sense to me that an archon would bring his pet haemonculus along on a raid... but I've never used any of the other selections from the covens.

That being said, the list I plan on trying out at 1750 is

Archon w/ blaster & venom

(5) incubi w/ claivex, venom

(5) kabilites, blaster & venom
(10) kabilites, raider w/ racks
(10) kabilites, raider w/ racks

(6) reavers, (2) caltrops
(6) reavers, (2) caltrops
(5) scourge, (4) SW*
(5) scourge, (4) SW*
razorwing w/ lances

(2) Ravagers w/ dissies
ravager w/ lances

plan would be to use the scourge as primary AT turn one & two - using (* probably HWB) to strip 2-3 HP from enemy tanks and allowing the ravager / razorwing to finish off anything they don't manage to kill outright.

I don't see putting shooting weapons on the reavers as being points well spent.  100% of their survivability comes from jinking so I imagine doing that a lot & thus snapshooting those heat lances - doesn't seem a smart investment.  I view reavers as using their JSJ from behind a piece of BLOS cover until they get an opportunity to hit something out in the open - even with HOW, charging into cover is suicide with only a 5+/5++ save... with the caltrops, you can at least run headlong into a tank if necessary when no BLOS terrain is handy & you've had to jink.

I'm honestly not sold on scourge at this time, but I've got the models so I'll be trying them out (worst thing is they'll end up going back to being swooping hawks...).  As primary AT, I'm just not convinced that T3, 4+ will see them last past turn one - EVERYTHING can kill them with ease.

I have to say, I'm loving incubi simply for the klaivex - potentially 8 attacks (9 with rage) on the charge at WS6, I6, S5 (furious charge) AP2 is insane.  Sure he's only a single wound T3, 3+ model, but he's only 30 points!!!  As I've never really experimented with the coven stuff before I'm not sure who will perform better overall, these guys or grotesques.... time will tell I guess.

I'd also consider taking a unit of (5) lhamians because that 50 point throw-away squad can really bring the pain to any MC out there - those 50 points bring about a 40% chance to slide an ID hit through a 3+ save the turn they charge, and at only 50 points, if they fail.... meh?

Why the Dissies on the Ravagers?  Do you plan on using them primarily as a clean-up unit that you can DS in?

I would rather see Heat Lances on the Reaver bikes.  I think that offers a lot more utility and escalates their threat ratio a lot in light to the rest of your army.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 23:09

@HERO wrote:

Why the Dissies on the Ravagers?  Do you plan on using them primarily as a clean-up unit that you can DS in?

Dissies on ravagers simply to give it a try, if they're jinking its still 9 shots so with luck a few hits against troops, whereas if you jink with dark lances you're pretty much not shooting that turn...

Also, since all the heavy hitters out there are T5+ nowadays, you're really not going to be able to put ID wounds onto units like white scars bikes, centurions or thunderwolves so lance fire is a bit of a waste - only able to put 1-2 wounds compared to the dissie that'll hopefully put an extra wound here or there.  Of course, there's also the counterpoint that a significant amount of AP2 shooting may push opponents to hug cover more, thus making the incubi more useless.... play testing will tell.


@HERO wrote:

I would rather see Heat Lances on the Reaver bikes.  I think that offers a lot more utility and escalates their threat ratio a lot in light to the rest of your army.

my thought is that everyone knows how effective heat lances can be, and how fragile reavers are.  Adding the heat lances will basically mean you ARE jinking from turn one on since nobody wants to let those HL's get close to their lines.  If you don't have LOS blocking terrain (how much of your army can you reasonably fit behind those 1-2 pieces you get at each tournament?) you HAVE to jink or die.  Adding (2) heat lances to that squad increases the squad cost by 25% & I just don't think you'll see the return on investment.


Both points considered, you could drop the venom borne kabilites & use those points to add heat lances, upgrade the ravagers to all be lances & still have an additional 30 points left over to scatter a few additional upgrades throughout the army.

Trade off being 1-2 fewer threats on the table, but increasing your existing units threat amounts...

Of note, I just noticed you guys were proffering lists @ 1850 points - to get there from 1750 I indicated, I'd simply take (5) lahmians in a transport & call it a day. As I said before, send them straight at a wraithknight / riptide & hope for the best.

To consider: is putting a single haywire grenade on a character really worth it? It would take 6+ turns to destroy an imperial knight in combat with your archon / succubus. Wouldn't it make more sense to have NO weapons & thus be able to make use of the "our weapons are useless" rule in conjunction with high dark eldar leadership to flee from a combat & then allow our shooting units to take over? Without my haywire wyches I'm really struggling to build a list that I'm confident can strip 12-18 HP over the course of a game (not counting "explodes" results...)
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 23:19

Points well-argued, and I can see your logic behind it. Let me know how things go.

Quote :
To consider: is putting a single haywire grenade on a character really worth it? It would take 6+ turns to destroy an imperial knight in combat with your archon / succubus. Wouldn't it make more sense to have NO weapons & thus be able to make use of the "our weapons are useless" rule in conjunction with high dark eldar leadership to flee from a combat & then allow our shooting units to take over? Without my haywire wyches I'm really struggling to build a list that I'm confident can strip 12-18 HP over the course of a game (not counting "explodes" results...)

A single Haywire is very cheap and is still worth the points I think. You're still almost average 1 glance/pen per turn vs. not doing any damage at all. That trade off is well-worth the miniature points.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 06:56

Please do not double post but use edit button instead. ///Vasara

It's good to see more competitive players in this forum too. I like your reasonings even though I don't always agree with you.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 06:57

Mirrored from:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-utilizing-eldar-warmachine.html

Alright, so by now the secret's out that the Dark Eldar codex can be a little better.  I've said this countless times, but I still think that the DE book benefits Eldar more than it does us.  There is not a single situation where I can say with absolute confidence that we do X stronger than our Craftworld cousins.  This disappoints me to the extreme, but I guess I have to live with this for the next couple of years.

Since I will always be Archon first, let's figure out how to incorporate some of the best Eldar elements into our army book.  First, let me list out some obvious synergies that stick out to me:

Autarch - Most of the transports and units in our book that can ride said transports can now DS directly onto the battlefield.  This allows us to appear out of nowhere because 7th Ed. rules can bring back full reserve armies.  Given, you still need to keep some units on the battlefield on T1 so you don't auto-lose, you can play a pretty mean reserve game and the Autarch is the man to do it.  With his awesomely cheap price, you can take a barebones WS with some Dire Avengers and just have him chill in it.  If he wants to come out and play, a simple Fusion gun will be enough.  Personally, I think the Farseer is now out of the picture because the Autarch's reserve manipulation rules synergies with Deep Strike way more than some lame-o psychic abilities.

Wave Serpents - The obvious power choice for competitive players will come in the form of the faithful, tried-and-true, tournament-winning transports of doom.  There is no arguing that the Wave Serpent is one of the best units in the entire game and for good reason.  It moves well, shoots well, and is extremely durable to return fire.  This is probably my go-to option in terms of providing scoring troops and a place that my Autarch can ride safely in.  I would be kidding myself if I said that the Autarch would be safe in one of my sailboats, but then again, a Fusion gun DSing in wouldn't be half bad.

Windrider Jetbikes/Rangers - A good, decent cheap troop option if you want something to just fill up that requirement.  While I would probably take Windriders every time, the Rangers can be a little more survivable by back-capping and just going to ground every chance they get.  It's really whether or not you want an aggressive objsec unit, or something more survivable.  Regardless, these guys should be in reserve and come on later to preserve their own well-being.

Fire Dragons - I can't say enough good things about these guys, except that they just blow our Trueborn out of the water.  You have incredibly strong and accurate shots at Melta and AP1, as well as Melta bombs as stock and 3+ armor.  For a lovely point cost of 110 for a squad of 5, you can take these guys in a Wave Serpent with an WWP Archon and call it a day.  Drop where you want, the WS will shoot the crap out of the rear armor of some vehicle, and then your Fire Dragons are now a permenant threat behind enemy lines or wherever you want top put it.  When you compare the price of 5x Trueborn with 4x Blasters, you get something like 115 DE vs. 110 from the Fire Dragons.  Just looking at that price difference should infuriate you because you get 3+ AS, meltabombs, fusion guns, Battle Focus, Fleet, the ability to take BS5 Exarchs, Fast Shot, and the lovely Wave Serpent.  You can bet your ass that these guys will replace your Trueborn in an mixed Eldar list.

Wraithguard - You can either have normal shots or D-Scythes, it all depends on what you want these guys to do.  Put a Archon in there with WWP, equip him with a Shadowfield and he will tank all those shots on a T6 unit with 3+ AS otherwise.  Sure, why not, give them a Wave Serpent as well and they can go around anywhere they want, blowing up infantry and vehicles alike and do a fine good job at it.  This is points well-paid for right here, since they do an incredible amount of damage and is also extremely durable.

Swooping Hawks/Warp Spiders - Drop in, do damage, feel good about yourself.  If you can take them, why not?  There's a reason why you see these guys in some Eldar lists, and you will find that they make great anti-infantry supplements to DE Scourges.

Crimson Hunter - I think by now, we've all come to realize that DE doesn't have dedicated anti-air.  While the Razorwing is a fair purchase at 140 with lances, for 20 points more you get something that's completely designed to wreck anything in the air.  Enter the Crimson Hunter, one of the most hotly disputed worthwhile units in the Eldar codex.  If you guys know anything about me, this is my favorite unit to exist in 40K to date.  I love the idea of an Eldar fighter ace and I have it with the Crimson Hunter Exarch, since 4x S8 AP2 shots at BS5 that re-rolls pen vs. air targets will shoot anything out of the air.  My biggest gripe with it is that despite being virtually naked defensively, he doesn't have any type of countermeasures defensively.  It is the biggest crime in the whole codex that this air superiority fighter doesn't have Holo-fields when humans have figured that out since the '50s.  Absolutely embarrassing.  Either way, these guys are great for dedicated anti-air, something that Dark Eldar lacks entirely.

Vyper Squadron/War Walkers - Does a crazy amount of damage at good range and with good maneuverability.  Comes with a buttload of high-powered S6 shots that you can upgrade to Scatter Laser so you can get that Laser-lock.  Let's just say that in most cases, these guys do a better job at killing vehicles than Ravagers.

Wraithknight - The big daddy in the codex has just as much meaning in the Dark Eldar book as it does in the Eldar.  You have something big, something very threatening, and it can cover a lot of ground and maul things in combat.  The two heavy wraithcannons should be the mainstay weapon since it can reach out and touch anything, and maybe even possibly ID'ing something on a roll of a 6.  While not entirely reliable, I've seen Riptides get sucked into the warp by that thing, so it's all good.  Just make sure to stay out of fist fights with Dreadknights and the WK should be able to make its points back with careful play.  Just remember that with the WK on the field, it pulls a lot of fire and attention away from the rest of your flimsy sailboats.  This can be a boon or a vice depending on how you use the rest of your army.  If the only thing on the board is the Wraithknight and the rest of your army is in reserve, it's going to be quite obvious what your enemy is going to shoot at.

Night Spinner - I put the Night Spinner in my army lists because it can do something very unique:  Provide Dark Eldar with a high-S Barrage weapon for vehicles hiding behind cover from our lances.  You have Razorwings to shred horde units, but the Night Spinner is there to punish vehicles that like to hide from the possible Alpha Strike.  The torrent weapon on a fast vehicle is also a useful at times, capable of hitting multiple vehicles and/or enemy models.

I'm sure there are other options out there, but here are the ones that stick out to me and I want to see them being used in my Dark Eldar army.

Here is what I'm currently planning to roll with:

1850
18 KP

HQ:
Archon, Blaster = 75
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 170
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*
5x Dire Avengers, Holo/SS/Scatter/SC = 220*

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*

The Archon goes to hang out with the 5x Warriors with the Blaster and comes in from DS.  If I can get a good position in early game, maybe he'll sit back and shoot, or else he'll be more of an opportunist like our friend Autarch over here.  He will be in one of the Wave Serpents, picking off what I can with the Ravagers while the Night Spinner does its thing.  Next turn, I'll be able to bring in some air support with the Razorwings, and if I have any enemy transports popped and their contents exposed, I'll gamble some drop-ins with my Warriors to go hard with their splinter weapons.

Looks decent on paper, but will it be any good?  Time will tell.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 07:08

I'd say how about rolling in the DE airforce?

(1750)

Archon, Blaster, Venom- 140
Autarch, Fusion Gun, Jetbike, Mantle- 165 (not sure exactly)
Warrior, 5x, Venom 2x SC- 105
Warrior, 5x, Venom 2x SC- 105
Jetbike, 3x- 51
Razorwing- 2x DL, 4x Monoscythe- 140
Razorwing- 2x DL, 4x Monoscythe- 140
Razorwing- 2x DC, SC, 4x Necrotoxin- 140
Voidraven- 2x VL, 4x Implosion- 220
Voidraven- 2x VL, 4x Implosion- 220
Voidraven- 2x DS, 4x Implosion- 220

However I wouldn't give up on DE solo itself

(1500- personally a list i wouldn't run, but its got effectiveness)

Archon, Blaster, Venom 2x SC- 140
Trueborn, 5x, 4x Blaster, Venom- 180
Trueborn, 5x, 4x Blaster, Venom- 180
Warriors, 5x, Venom 2x SC- 105
Warriors, 5x, Venom 2x SC- 105
Scourges- 5x, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges- 5x, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges- 5x, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Ravager- 3x DL, NS / Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager- 3x DL, NS / Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager- 3x DL, NS / Razorwing, 2x DL- 140

This list is got AT of every variety. Run the Ravager/HWB combo for the early first blood, or the Razorwing/Heat Lance for a beta strike. Lances and Blasters can handle non-vehicle tough units as well, on top of the splinter cannon shots.

with 10 pts to spare.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 06:05

HERO do you happen to play vassal? Just a random question
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 07:15

@Dat_Other_Guy wrote:
HERO do you happen to play vassal? Just a random question

Of course!  It's one of my favorite arenas to test out different army builds.  I've probably played around 3 games vs. DE and 2 games with DE so far (mainly because everyone wants to play DE).

Keep in mind that I always build my lists to be competitive all-comers, none of that tailoring crap.  To sum up my experiences so far..

Game #1 - My Tau vs. solo DE with Venomspam
Huge win. Turkey shoot in my favor, even with him going first and getting stealth.  The pure amount of S7 twin-linked, SMS and my Drone Controlling Commander just blew him out of the water.  I think I killed 2 Ravagers, 4 Venoms and a Raider in my first turn of shooting, while severely crippling other things.  Just look at my list below, it's a pretty standard shooting list with Tau.

Game #2 - My DE/Eldar vs. Mechdar
Lose by 2, even with me deploying mostly everything in reserve and hiding my Night Spinner.  My DE elements got shot to crap and my WS could not outmatch a greater number of WS and Wraithknights.  Razorwings couldn't do anything significant vs. the WKs when they're getting cover + Shrouding from the Telepathy Farseer, and even without AA, he just forced enough twin-linked Ignore Cover shots and killed off my Razorwings without any issues.

Game #3 - My pure DE vs. Tau
Draw. I went first, Ravagers shot into the Broadsides and killed a full unit.  Rest of my shooting was uneventful, and I had 3x Razorwings and 2x Gunboats in  reserve ready to drop in.  I roll like ass for reserves, bringing in 1 Razorwing which gets intercepted and destroyed by the Quad-gun, a single Gunboat comes in and tries to shoot down a half-health Riptide but instead gets Intercepted and exploded, then the rest of my crap blows up because of SMS, Missile Pods, and Ignore Cover MSSS Commander granting it to Crisis Suits.  I end up tying the game with First Blood, Warlord (lance gibbed), Linebreaker, and scratching the bottom of the barrel with like 4 Warriors left holding onto an objective.

Game #4 - My Mechdar vs. pure DE
Huge win.  The game was over on T1 on my turn.  He deploys in front of me under Night Fighting, I had 5x WS, 2x Prisms and a Night Spinner with CHEx on call.  Didn't need to do any counter-reserving since an Autarch was my commander.  First round begins, I destroy 2 Ravagers, a Venom, 2 Raiders, kill an entire Warrior squad, and another gets pinned, while the Trueborn in the Venom are left staggering.  He concedes, even with 2x Haemonculi and 2x Scourges with 4x HWB in reserve.  Why would Mechdar care?

Game #5 - My mixed Eldar vs. pure DE
Huge win.  I think my opponent had some Groteques, which gets gibbed and shot to crap from my Guide/Divination double WK list, and the rest of his army evaporates to 4x WS with Scatters.  This list had more Raiders in there, but it just couldn't do enough damage to my WKs due to BS4, wounding on 4s, cover, and my Farseer was invincible with 2+ cover re-rollable, which the DE player couldn't touch because he's pure DE.  He had more Raiders than Venoms, which would have been super helpful vs. WK, but because he didn't, he just couldn't deal with them.

Lists are as follows, all 1850:
Pure DE-
Succubus with 9x Wyches in Raider
3x Gunboats with Warriors in Raiders
2x 5x Warriors in Raiders
All with Blasters, lance on the Raider and Athersails
3x Razorwing with Lances
3x Ravagers

DE/Eldar-
Archon, Autarch
5x Warriors in Raider with Blaster
2x Gunboats with 10x Warriors in Raiders, the works
2x 5x Dire Avengers in Holo WS, Scatter, SC, Stones
2x Razorwing with Lances
3x Ravagers with Lances
1x Night Spinner, Holo, Stones

My Tau-
Buffmander with Drone Controller, MSSS
Fireblade in 12x Fire Warriors
Another 12x Fire Warriors and a smaller 6x Warrior unit
All behind ADL with Quad-gun with Fireblade on the gun
2x XV104 Riptides with Early Warning, SMS and Ion Accel
3x Crisis Suits with TL Missiles, BS Filter and Early Warning
12x Marker Drones chilling with the Buffmander
2x 3x XV88 Broadsides with HY Missiles and Target Lock
1x Hammerhead Gunship with Dpod and Submunitions

My Mechdar-
Autarch
5x Min Dire Avenger WS, Scatters, Holo, Stones
Crimson Hunter Exarch
2x Fire Prisms, Holo, Stones
1x Night Spinner, Holo, Stones

Another version-
Laughing Seer, Telepathy for Shrouding
Autarch for reserves
4x Min Dire Avenger WS, Scatters, Holo, Stones
Crimson Hunter
2x Wraithknights
1x Night Spinner, Holo, Stones

I'm lucky enough to find some Eldar and Tau players on Vassal because that's pretty much all you find in the competitive scene.  Tau can do some seriously stupid crap to Dark Eldar, pretty much turning them inside out with all the high-volume, high-strength, Ignore Cover bullshit from a million miles away.  At least when I had Night Shields I was able to pick at him from range because I had NS on all my vehicles, now they just don't give a crap.  You match range with their 36" Broadsides and you're forced to shoot into cover because you don't have any Ignore Cover of your own.  From early observations playing with and against, I would place Tau at 85-15 odds vs. pure DE.

As for Mechdar, lol, forget about it.  I don't know how you're supposed to tackle that kind of pressure from Wave Serpents.  They move fast, pretty much kills any one of your vehicles with a push of a button, and takes almost no damage on return fire from your lances.  If you want to play the DS reserve war, their Autarchs does a better job at it.  If you have Scourges, you're screwed because where are you going to drop them that's safe from the Serpents and still do a good job?  The fact that they can just move and receive a +1 cover is huge, compared to the Jink saves DE makes and gets completely ignored.  Wraithknights punch out Grotesques all day, while their natural T8 make them a nightmare to do damage to with lances.  This basically means that you want to take more Venoms naturally, but if you do, you're just going to eat it from Wave Serpents because you really don't have a solid answer.  I think this is one matchup you're just going to eat it if you're not taking some Eldar elements yourself.  It's almost unwinnable:  95-5 vs. pure DE.

Not only do I feel those two matchups are ridiculously difficult for Dark Eldar, but their books are superior in almost every way.  It's all about options, and they got a lot more than we do.  Sorry.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 14:07

Wow i didnt know you played vassal although i dont care about losing to 5 Wave Serpents, i fought you yesterday, coincedence isnt it ? Smile my username is Nightmare Wink
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 14:14

PM me if you want to duel id be happy to. Although im liking the new dex alot. I check this website daily Wink
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 04:47

Couple of things:
Synergy wise, a few things as a long time eldar player. With the Iyanden book you have some super powerful options. One that I have been doing is to take an Autarch on a bike with Soulshrive with a bunch of reavers. This has gotten way better with the new blade vanes and HOW. Buy turn four that autarch can be S 8-10 and a beast. Another option I am going to try is a shadow council in a grot bomb. Take three seers, roll two on telepathy and the other on Runes of Battle or maledition. Summoning flamers is pure LOL win. As is multiple psychic shrieks. If you land invis, game over. Anyhow Lora of top tier options there.

The wraith knight is another winner, and warp spiders are almost auto include.

Just have to throw this out there. You want a competitive list, then you are going to have to look at covens. Grots (have to have at least five) are insane WWP candidates; esp with liquifiers and multi charging (shadow council with these guys and a WWP HQ tax.) Talos and cronos are redic. That five talos formation with scout and extra VP potential has some serious legS.
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 05:03

This is a great exercise.  Like I said, the idea would not to be to criticize your list, but present a possible solution to Mechdar.

Here are the restrictions:
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/bay-area-open-2014/bao-tournament-format/

You're building for 1850, and the meta will look like this:
-Mechdar, 2x WK-variant, Autarch variant, Spiritseer/Wraithguard, all of these lists may or may not have Farseers to provided Shrouded.
-Tau, with possible SM allies, assume your standard gunline with Broadsides, Buffmander, Kroot backfielders and Riptides.  New suit will be allowed at the event.
-Space Marine-variants, possible Imperial Knight allies (made popular last major), but almost always grav-shooting
-Imperial Knights
-Chaos Space Marines, typical Nurgle play + Heldrakes
-Necrons, big infantry or MSU mech-playstyles with Ghost Arks, Lord in Chariot and Annihilation Barges
-Demons, typical flying circus
-Tyranids, while rare, almost always come with dual dakka-flyrants.

I listed this in the order of most frequently encountered and the hardest matchups for us (IMO).  If I showed up at this event, I would take heavy Eldar support.

Quote :
1850
18 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Haywire = 100
Autarch, Fusion Gun = 80*

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider/AS = 120
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*
5x Dire Avengers, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 210*

FAST:
5x Fire Dragons, WS/Holo/SS/Scatter = 255*

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Night Spinner, Holo/SS = 140*

The playstyle is MSU, Archon is set as WWP bitch for the Fire Dragon's unit so it can come down and hopefully take down 2 units.  The Autarch is also in the same unit with the Fusion Gun, while taking advantage of the +1 reserve rule to bring in for alpha strike, or counter-reserve vs. enemy Eldar forces not using the Autarch.  The Fire Dragons have meltabombs, the Autarch comes with a Haywire and your own Archon has one as well, making them highly dangerous in an assault vs. any armored foe.  The pinpoint WWP drop will also make sure that I can get the jump in on a Knight, and hopefully take it down with a lucky salvo.

The list is constructed to take maximum firepower and ranged dominance for anti-tank, having no less than 13 lance shots at 36", which syngerizes with the Wave Serpent's ability to follow suit with Scatter Lasers and Serpent Shields.  The Night Spinner is there to flush out tightly enemy Eldar hiding behind any buildings, since S8 barrage with typically no cover and side armor is actually not bad if going first.

My biggest challenge here will be opposing WS as they can take out my anti-tank elements if I let them, so the key would be reserve manipulation and deepstrike advantage.  My opponent will almost knowingly follow suit, but if he doesn't have an Autarch, I will be able to hold the advantage over him.  In a situation that requires me to negotiate a alpha strike, I will need to hide the Night Spinner on the board and just pray for lucky barrage while jinking for my life next turn if he tries to hunt me down.

I know that there is absolutely no presence of air here and that is fine for me, having seen what twin-linked Ignore Cover WS can do to opposing air units, and them doing little to no damage in return because of Fast Skimmer Jinks.  Due to the fact that I invested heavily in playing vs. Mech, I'm now vulnerable to stuff like Lootas, any kind of meat tides in general, and maybe even Tyranids considering that I don't have the massed Venom shots.  Then again, they don't like a lot of lance shots either, and I do have a healthy amount of S6+ shots myself coming from the WS support.  I feel that with this list, I'll also feel good vs. Tau, seeing how enough powerful shooting will hopefully do heavy damage to Broadsides and other T4 instantly-gibbable units, but that's never a sure thing.  I know for sure Riptides do not like the high volume of Lances, but Shrouded Wraithknights will most likely have a field day with me.  Hopefully, I will be able to negotiate the DS dice-gods into letting me have some Warriors drop down on their face while I concentrate on the lesser amount of WS present in double WK lists.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 08:03

@Hannibal.Lictor wrote:
Couple of things:
Take three seers, roll two on telepathy and the other on Runes of Battle or maledition. Summoning flamers is pure LOL win. As is multiple psychic shrieks. If you land invis, game over. Anyhow Lora of top tier options there.

Wow. As a big fan of grots this looks VERY attractive for me! I've never thought about the combination of Runes of Battle and grots so far (though everyone knows the power of Telepathy Wink).
- Ld-6 by Horrify, Freakish Spectacle, and Armor of Misery
- WS/I buff by Enhance
- Armor-1 by Jinx (better than Protect IMHO)
- S buff by Empower (S8 grots with the strongest luck!)

Thank for the idea Hannibal. And also appreciate HERO for the series of valuable discussions!

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Hannibal.Lictor
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 23:05

Imagine two psychic screams with that set up, its a lot of inv saves. I am giddy with the possibilities.

@Hero, know the BOA well and the West Coast meta so let me do an 1850 list using the conventions of that format. Its a tough one because you need to be able to deal with three Knights, FMCs, Tau and WS spam as you have stated. There is also some very solid cron lists that I have run into; I really hope mindshackle scarbs get a nerf... Anyhow, here is something I would like to play. Keep in mind I am never top table, I prefer a very fun list that hits like a truck.

There are just too many triptide and wyverns with ignores cover for me to trust in paper boats. You are just one sieve away from getting kicked to the back of the genepool.

So here it is and a little explaination in the end.
1850 DE: RSR E:Ally

HQ:
Haemey w/WWP, Helm of Spite, and scissorhands.
Shadow Council of three Seers.

TROOPS:
DAx10 WS W/SL and HF
Kab Venom Dual SC
Kab Venom Dual SC

LEETS:
Grotesques x 5

FA:
Razorwing DL
Razorwing DL
Reavers x9 Caltropsx3 HLx3
Scourges HLx4
Scourges HLx4

HS
W Knight

Heamey, grots and seers are in a bomb. I find that the ability to shut down psychic powers overrides the misery thing. There is just way too much invis going on with centstars for me to ignore. (I bet that the BAO FAQs invis and nixes the no template thing.) The basic idea is a big meat shield and scream the pants off of something (B sides, riptide, wknight, gunline.. you get the jist.

Turn one I would prob keep most stuff in the reserves other than the Knight, Serpen and if I can hide them reavers. All the kabs are going to do is cap objectives, burn MSU. Reavers are sweet as pie. Either the guy has never had the pleasure of getting hit by these guys are is having to keep one eye open. The new bladevanes are so good. Granted geting all nine in BtB is a stretch, you can have a sacrificial chump followed by the caltrops. They also multicharge like champs. The heat lances are for popping tansports for a follow up charge into oblivion.

I think the rest of the list is obvious. VS knights, try to lance one down and cross vector it so they have to make a choice on the shield. I almost want to go blasters on the reavers. Hope to burn one a turn provided I still have enough AT left alive. VS Tau, FS bomb is a mother, but is a huge gamble. Basically turtle up, serpent with its butt on the table edge and burn the unit with the lucky few. With out a crisis bomb, you have a little more leeway. With tau you want to get in their faces quick. The knight can tank a surprising amount of pain. I tend to shoot broadsides or riptide urn one for a lucky gib. Reavers HATE SMS, be aware of 30 inches. That grot bomb can really evaporate a gunline turn 3.

WS spam...this one is hard. Your best bet is to try to knock one out with your WS and hopw to HL anoter one or two the turn the scourges come on. Reavers can help alot here with their maneuverability. The bomb can force some movement once they come on, but until you take a few out they can be kited. Generally I have seen most serpent spam lists like to skirt the table edge alot and this can be their undoing, but its a real uphill battle. GW messed up with the Wave Serpent....a last ditch shield gun that shoots 60 inches....

Anyhow, that my list. Its also pretty strong vs those bike lists as well. Just look out for those CM bastards.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 23:14

Quote :
Heamey, grots and seers are in a bomb. I find that the ability to shut down psychic powers overrides the misery thing. There is just way too much invis going on with centstars for me to ignore. (I bet that the BAO FAQs invis and nixes the no template thing.) The basic idea is a big meat shield and scream the pants off of something (B sides, riptide, wknight, gunline.. you get the jist.

Turn one I would prob keep most stuff in the reserves other than the Knight, Serpen and if I can hide them reavers. All the kabs are going to do is cap objectives, burn MSU. Reavers are sweet as pie. Either the guy has never had the pleasure of getting hit by these guys are is having to keep one eye open. The new bladevanes are so good. Granted geting all nine in BtB is a stretch, you can have a sacrificial chump followed by the caltrops. They also multicharge like champs. The heat lances are for popping tansports for a follow up charge into oblivion.

I think the rest of the list is obvious. VS knights, try to lance one down and cross vector it so they have to make a choice on the shield. I almost want to go blasters on the reavers. Hope to burn one a turn provided I still have enough AT left alive. VS Tau, FS bomb is a mother, but is a huge gamble. Basically turtle up, serpent with its butt on the table edge and burn the unit with the lucky few. With out a crisis bomb, you have a little more leeway. With tau you want to get in their faces quick. The knight can tank a surprising amount of pain. I tend to shoot broadsides or riptide urn one for a lucky gib. Reavers HATE SMS, be aware of 30 inches. That grot bomb can really evaporate a gunline turn 3.

WS spam...this one is hard. Your best bet is to try to knock one out with your WS and hopw to HL anoter one or two the turn the scourges come on. Reavers can help alot here with their maneuverability. The bomb can force some movement once they come on, but until you take a few out they can be kited. Generally I have seen most serpent spam lists like to skirt the table edge alot and this can be their undoing, but its a real uphill battle. GW messed up with the Wave Serpent....a last ditch shield gun that shoots 60 inches....

Anyhow, that my list. Its also pretty strong vs those bike lists as well. Just look out for those CM bastards.

The one thing to watch out for the Reavers is that enemy Night Spinner just have a field day with them with their torrent weapon.  Same can be said about Heldrakes and D-Scythes, so you gotta watch out for how you assault and the position of the jetbikes.

Knights are going to be a pain without Haywires, but hopefully you can just foucs them down with a large number of lances.  Hope he fails some saves and come with him from so many angles that he'll have no shield.  That's why I have my Archon with Blasterborn in there, that's 6 lances going into his ass from anywhere that I wish.

On the subject of Tau, SMS really hurts Reavers because there's just so many of them in the army.  That's one of the reasons that's keeping Reavers and Scourges out of my lists.  Yes, they're good, there's no arguing that there, but against Mechdar and Tau, they fall really, really short of expectations.  You can't hide them, you need to rush them forward to get their points worth, or else you're floating 174 or whatever points doing nothing.  If you take them too small, their impact on the battlefield will be mediocre at best.  So for me, you're either going big or going home every time, hoping you don't draw into certain matchups and that's not reliable enough for me to build an army around.

Yeah, I agree, GW messed up big on the Serpent.  That weapon should have been 1-time only, D3+1 at best, or shouldn't have it at all.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 23:18

Mirrored:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-running-pure-dark-eldar.html

My approach for pure DE is pretty straight forward, but I have lances on everything that I can and completely skipped melee. My reasoning for that is that any melee options in our codex is just too cliche. There's no glory to be had in this very shooty edition, and the fact that we lost Haywires further limits our use of melee because frankly, our melee options are too slow. Those that are not too slow are either too expensive and not worth the points, or are just flatout subpar.

The direction I want to explore is this:

Quote :
1850
20 KP

HQ:
Archon, WWP, Blaster, Haywire = 115

TROOP:
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120
5x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS = 120
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

ELITE:
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/NS = 195

FAST:
Razorwing, Lances = 140
Razorwing, Lances = 140

HEAVY:
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125
Ravager, Lances = 125

Shoot with lances, maybe swap in some Venoms in your list and keep them in the backfield, WWP Archon delivers a killsquad of lances to someone's ass, while Razorwings do the heavy lifting for anti-infantry.  Ravagers can start off on the board shooting, in combination with the 3x smaller Warrior units.  If you want to apply pressure with all your lances, feel free to do so because you'll have 15 to shoot off at the beginning of the round.

Night Shields are a scam.  The 3+ Jink is not worth 1/4th the price of the vehicle.  I see what you're saying about the flyers, but the thing is AV10.  If it's going to get shot by anything worthwhile, you're most likely going to eat enough fire to disappear anyway.  In my experience, the guys who take Skyfire in their lists is going to kill whatever they're shooting at in most cases.

If I had extra points to take on NS, it would be on the Flyers, or Blasterchron's pimp-ride. Think about it this way though, even if you don't take NS on the flyers, just blow your load on an angle that can be reached by a board edge. That way, if you take any damage next turn, hopefully you can just Supersonic off.

Other variants of this list can see:

Quote :
5x Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC = 120

This is my standard Venom Warrior unit.  I use this to pick at my opponents and offer a long-ranged anti-infantry solution.  This unit should be used as long-ranged support, but also advance up if you need additional lance support from 18" away due to the Blaster.  Never forget that you have guys inside that can also shoot poisoned shots.

Otherwise, I suggest taking at least some gunboats in your list:

Quote :
10x Warriors, Blaster, Raider Lance/AS/SR = 175

This is my gunboat variant in its current form.  You run it 50 points more expensive, but you get 18 rapid fire poisoned shots from 12" away, in addition to 1 Blaster shot on whatever target that you shoot.  Keep in mind that the Raider's lance is its own unit, so you can pop a transport and then shoot at its contents inside with your warriors.  Being a larger unit also means that it has more staying power than the two above, so the 50 extra points you pay is for more bodies and more anti-infantry.  This one should be best used while close to your opponents, which means DS or steady advancement towards the frontlines.  Also keep in mind that the dudes inside are not subject to Raider's Jink snapfire restrictions, and never forget that Rapid Fire can now shoot from 24", just in case you want to get off a few wounds.

Regardless of setup, all of my vehicles come with Enhanced Aethersails whenever I can afford them.  They allow me to move a consistent +6" more in the TB phase, which means I can correct poor DS or get behind cover to await further opportunities.

And lastly, do remember that all of these are meta-calls.  In a infantry-rich environment like Footcrons, Greentide and Tyranids, Venoms and Gunboats do quite well.  In more Mech, you want 5-man Lance Raiders for the cheaper AT.  No matter what, you still need some kind of anti-infantry somewhere in your list, so it all depends on what the rest of your list looks like as well.  Furthermore, I would not drop the Blasterchron with the WWP. It's seriously one of the best things in the book: Giving you 6 lances where you want it, how you want it.

That's just too good to pass up.  Oh, for Warlord traits, you really want the Strategic tree.  While the 2nd from the DE tree is amazing, you really gotta fish for it, even with the re-roll.

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PostSubject: Re: HERO's Kabal Webway [1850]   HERO's Kabal Webway [1850] I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 14 2014, 00:22

Tells about the proliferation of SMS in the tau army...I am tempted to make some changes and get two ravangers in there. The main thing I want to do turn one is get rid of any interceptor that I can. With tau it's rough but with the knight and what not I can mitigate the damage. Those rwp razorwings can be brutal to any infantry with 8 possible large templates. Even four is nasty if you have to kink one.

I love bombs, I have been gating d-scythes around. Good times.
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