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Stwess
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 19:43

I know most of us like night shields, and think that they should almost always be taken. But are night shields really worth it? Is 15 points added to an already fairly expensive, paper thin vehicles worth it?
I think under certain circumstances they are useful, but maybe the points could put put to better use. More killiness? Chain snares? Sails? Etc.. Cheaper upgrades or non at all?

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Matador09
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:03

I think they're a much more situational upgrade now.  

They're probably worth it on flyers, given the huge point sink our flyers are now.  

On a Ravager, I'd probably not take them.  My reasoning here is that Ravagers aren't nearly the fire magnet they once were, and more often than not, I'd rather take the chance at full BS next turn rather than jinking to keep one alive.  Though honestly, Ravagers likely won't make an appearance in my lists in their current iteration.

Raiders I'd say are the tricky choice.  It really depends on what they're carrying.  With a gunboat raider, I'll likely take night shields and splinter racks.  It protects the points investment, while keeping the effectiveness of the unit at a reasonable capacity.  With an assault barge, the question for me is the toughness of the models inside.  Can they withstand the explosion and subsequent shooting?  If the answer is yes (Grots, Wracks, Incubi) I'll probably just give them Advanced AEthersails and get into assault position on turn 1.  It's just cheaper and they don't care to shoot.  If it's carrying Lhamaeans or some Eldar ally of a sort, they'll probably get the Night Shields and jink turn 1.

At any rate, it's definitely a value argument.  You'll be taking about 2/3's of the shots you would with regular jink saves, in addition to getting better cover when you find some.  Protect your points or not.


Last edited by Matador09 on Thu Oct 09 2014, 00:47; edited 1 time in total
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:07

Matador09 wrote:
I think they're a much more situational upgrade now.  

They're probably worth it on flyers, given the huge point sink our flyers are now.  

On a Ravager, I'd probably not take them.  My reasoning here is that Ravagers aren't nearly the fire magnet they once were, and more often than not, I'd rather take the chance at full BS next turn rather than jinking to keep one alive.  Though honestly, Ravagers likely won't make an appearance in my lists in their current iteration.

Raiders I'd say are the tricky choice.  It really depends on what they're carrying.  With a gunboat raider, I'll likely take night shields and splinter racks.  It protects the points investment, while keeping the effectiveness of the unit at a reasonable capacity.  With an assault barge, the question for me is the toughness of the models inside.  Can they withstand the explosion and subsequent shooting?  If the answer is yes (Grots, Wracks, Incubi) I'll probably just give them Advanced AEthersails and get into assault position on turn 1.  It's just cheaper and they don't care to shoot.  If it's carrying Lhamaeans or some Eldar ally of a sort, they'll probably get the Night Shields and jink turn 1.

At rate, it's definitely a value argument.  You'll be taking about 2/3's of the shots you would with regular jink saves, in addition to getting better cover when you find some.  Protect your points or not.

I agree with this mentality a lot.

They're expensive for what they can provide, and depending on your meta and opponent, they  might be a complete waste of points.  I think positioning, denying shot, angling, and getting cover from solid sources (such as buildings/ruins) will all be better.

In the current meta, I would say they're semi-useful, whereas Flickerfields were always useful, and cheaper.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:15

If flicker fields were still available I would definitely take them.

As for night shields I am of the same opinion.  In a list that I am going to run this week I have two raiders in my army.  One with WWP grots without the NS and a kabalite gunboat with NS(still might drop the shields).  My razorwing will have shields as I plan a jinking as soon as it gets shot at and then flying off the board.

The only I see myself using NS on are indeed gunboats and flyers.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:29

If you change how you use ravagers I'd still be very tempted to get night shields. Since they lost some of their mobility, I think you'll want to keep them more stationary and in cover whenever possible. Using them this way, you can take a simple forest and make it a 4+ cover save without having to jink for snap shots. Bring a fortification and you can get a 3+ or even 2+ with no snap shooting necessary.
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Dark Lance
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 23:23

Gents,

I think a 3+ Jink (Stealth + Jink) is very nice, especially if you are transporting a key unit. However, I just went into a GW store and the patrons had a different view on Jink then me. I stated the raider or venom is the model that jinks and not the unit on board. My friend thought it was both and a dispute should be rolled off. I think this is a significant question for DE and our open top transports. I've seen this discussed on the Internet before and consequently adopted the postion that Jink refers only to the unit jinking and not all models on board. What is your view and is this issue coming up often?
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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 23:44

Dark Lance wrote:
Gents,

I think a 3+ Jink (Stealth + Jink) is very nice, especially if you are transporting a key unit.  However, I just went into a GW store and the patrons had a different view on Jink then me.   I stated the raider or venom is the model that jinks and not the unit on board.  My friend thought it was both and a dispute should be rolled off.  I think this is a significant question for DE and our open top transports.  I've seen this discussed on the Internet before and consequently adopted the postion that Jink refers only to the unit jinking and not all models on board.  What is your view and is this issue coming up often?

Like what do you mean?

The unit onboard doesn't jink, they get no cover save (they can't be hit by a weapon that allows cover saves anyway), nor do they have to snapfire. The vehicle jinks, gets the save, and has to snapfire. That's like the rules.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 23:48

Just read them the rules! The passengers don't even have the 'Jink' Special Rule, so they couldn't 'Jink' even if they wanted to. Smile

As for Night Shields, 3+ Jink isn't nothing, it's something! Aaand... correct me if I'm wrong, but if you bring a Realspace Raiders detachment, on your first turn your Raiders and Venoms carrying Troops (or chosen for Troops) get a 4+ cover save even without jinking?

EDIT: By the way, if a vehicle does explode on the first turn, is there a reason why the Troops on board couldn't get a cover save from the explosion? Granted it doesn't make a lot of sense...

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 23:57

Sure thing +1 to cover is worth 15 points.

My logic is this: how much points of damage can you prevent by these 15 points? About 17% of what would die if you don't make the save. This easily means, transport and its payload. So those 15 points are far less expensive.
(In my case 17% of my transport is already 12 points and it transporting wyches, which are allergic to exploding transports, so Night-Shield is a no-brainer for me)

But if you are going for a spam list, and thus put quantity before quality. That cheaper is better, as it gives you more quantity.

To me it is more a choice of type of list you are building that a question of the effectiveness.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 00:20

El_Jairo wrote:
Sure thing +1 to cover is worth 15 points.

My logic is this: how much points of damage can you prevent by these 15 points? About 17% of what would die if you don't make the save. This easily means, transport and its payload. So those 15 points are far less expensive.
(In my case 17% of my transport is already 12 points and it transporting wyches, which are allergic to exploding transports, so Night-Shield is a no-brainer for me)

But if you are going for a spam list, and thus put quantity before quality. That cheaper is better, as it gives you more quantity.

To me it is more a choice of type of list you are building that a question of the effectiveness.

I don't think it's either or. Just because its quantity over quality doesn't change the fact that 3+ Jink is better than not.

It's more dependent on whether your enemies have anything to deal with it.

I would take it more if it was 10 points, and if Jink didn't change on us to be future-super-psychics. Why should I jink before you even fire is beyond me..

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 00:34

HERO wrote:
Why should I jink before you even fire is beyond me..

To be fair, once the laser has left the barrel it's probably a bit late to get out of the way.

Although it does make for in game awkwardness if one or both players is not completely on top of jinking. If the opponent just nominates a target and starts rolling dice, it feels a bit like snap - trying to yell out "Jink!" before the dice hit the ground! Rolling Eyes

On topic, I like the Night fields for units that don't want to be shooting anyway, like raiders carrying assault units or razorwings that will be happy to leave the field and come back. 3+ Jink is pretty handy, except against those annoyingly common ignores cover weapons. Pity Night shields don't stack with night fight anymore though. I guess it can only get so dark.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 04:30

My default response is jink, always, unless I at least have an obscured save already.  I don't care if I'm only snapshooting my ravager next turn, at least I'm shooting it & the opponent will need to expend more resources to remove it.  Since jink has zero effect on the passengers, my raiders ALWAYS jink - they never bloody hit anyways.

To that end I'll be trying to put shields on any vehicle I want to live longer than 1 turn, which includes ravagers and kabalite splinter gunboats. Any of the fire & forget type vehicles may get shields to help turn one that 50% of the time it isn't night fighting, but those are the options once the core of the army is built.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 04:42

Eldar Fire Prisms pay the same points for the same thing.

And so do AM's Camo Netting.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 08:30

PainReaver wrote:
Eldar Fire Prisms pay the same points for the same thing.

And so do AM's Camo Netting.

There's a difference Tau and Eldar get +1 to their cover save, meaning it stacks with stealth and night fight. We get stealth which doesn't stack with the stealth from night fight. Night shields would be a lot nicer if we could get a 2+ cover save when playing night fight.

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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 09:34

Mushkilla wrote:
PainReaver wrote:
Eldar Fire Prisms pay the same points for the same thing.

And so do AM's Camo Netting.

There's a difference Tau and Eldar get +1 to their cover save, meaning it stacks with stealth and night fight. We get stealth which doesn't stack with the stealth from night fight. Night shields would be a lot nicer if we could get a 2+ cover save when playing night fight.

Yup, same price, but Dark Eldar get a worse effect, of course. That's GW for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 18:13

Creeping Darkness wrote:
HERO wrote:
Why should I jink before you even fire is beyond me..

To be fair, once the laser has left the barrel it's probably a bit late to get out of the way.

Although it does make for in game awkwardness if one or both players is not completely on top of jinking. If the opponent just nominates a target and starts rolling dice, it feels a bit like snap - trying to yell out "Jink!" before the dice hit the ground! Rolling Eyes


^^^This. Sooooo This. First time poster here, ridiculously long time lurker. In my meta, targeting the model has become a production in patronizing and coddling. "I targeting this Leman Russ, Right here, yooohooo, this one!"

When the opponent dons the look of Tharn (today's vocab word - the look the deer has when it spots the headlights and refuses to flee), I just roll.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 18:34

Mandor wrote:
Mushkilla wrote:
PainReaver wrote:
Eldar Fire Prisms pay the same points for the same thing.

And so do AM's Camo Netting.

There's a difference Tau and Eldar get +1 to their cover save, meaning it stacks with stealth and night fight. We get stealth which doesn't stack with the stealth from night fight. Night shields would be a lot nicer if we could get a 2+ cover save when playing night fight.

Yup, same price, but Dark Eldar get a worse effect, of course. That's GW for you.

Please note that we already have a boon in that if using the splinter raid force (and why aren't you really?) we come with a default coversave improvement already for nightfight - 5+/6+ which then couples with stealth from either source. No other army has this benefit so on turns with nightfight, we effectively have the same base save (Better on troops) than our craftworld brethren - and its free.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 19:09

clever handle wrote:


Please note that we already have a boon in that if using the splinter raid force (and why aren't you really?) we come with a default coversave improvement already for nightfight - 5+/6+ which then couples with stealth from either source.

Sadly it is only a cover save and not a cover save improvement, so you would still end up with a far better cover save from jinking and stealth or being obscured with stealth. Kind of puts a dampener on its actual value.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 19:16

Creeping Darkness wrote:
If the opponent just nominates a target and starts rolling dice, it feels a bit like snap - trying to yell out "Jink!" before the dice hit the ground! Rolling Eyes

I always just make clear with my opponent that every one of my vehicles has the option to jink, and that if he rolls prior to me making the declaration of "jinking" or "not jinking", then that doesn't take away my option to jink.

My decision to jink is part of the order of operations, and the opponent has no right to skip that part by rolling quickly. Declare target, opponent declares jinks or not, THEN roll.

Personally, I will straight up ask my opponent if they're jinking to avoid this. Sure, I may be reminding them of a rule they forgot, but if they're THAT inexperienced that they're forgetting about jink, I don't mind helping them out.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 19:41

Stwess wrote:

Sadly it is only a cover save and not a cover save improvement, so you would still end up with a far better cover save from jinking and stealth or being obscured with stealth. Kind of puts a dampener on its actual value.

what I mean by that is that we have six cases:
a) CWE, nightfight: stealth from nightfight and +1 CS from wargear
b) CWE, not nightfight: +1 CS from wargear
c) DE, nightfight: 5+/6+ CS from tactical benefit and stealth from wargear
d) DE, not nightfight: stealth from wargear

for each option, the / post jink save is the same. In fact, for type c, our troops have a better coversave. Technically, if a CWE player has the wargear, and its nightfight, and they jink, they have a better save than their dark kin - but then they're snapshooting with their tank that costs more than twice ours, so ultimately still a net win=)

@BetrayTheWorld:
absolutely, any opponent that rolls to hit without giving you a chance to declare jink or not, gets (2) options: either post-roll accept my jink, or reroll to hit after I declare - I really don't care which they select (unless they miss a bunch the first try!)
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Matador09
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 21:08

clever handle wrote:

what I mean by that is that we have six cases:
a) CWE, nightfight: stealth from nightfight and +1 CS from wargear
b) CWE, not nightfight: +1 CS from wargear
c) DE, nightfight: 5+/6+ CS from tactical benefit and stealth from wargear
d) DE, not nightfight: stealth from wargear

The important cases are these 2 you didn't mention:

e) CWE, nightfight, in cover: Stealth from NF, +1 CS from wargear, Natural cover save
f) DE, Nightfight, in cover: 6+ from tactical benefit, overwritten by natural cover, 2 instances of stealth from NF and wargear.

e > f always
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 21:39

ultimately it doesn't matter since nobody gets the NF bonus against the dark kin so in a CWE v DE game both saves end up the same.

Against everybody else? true, but remember they're paying twice as much for that tank as we are. It sure would have been nice to gain shrouded, but a 2++ when you jink is a bit much & well, "if 'its' & 'buts' & all that..."
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 22:48

clever handle wrote:
Please note that we already have a boon in that if using the splinter raid force (and why aren't you really?) we come with a default coversave improvement already for nightfight - 5+/6+ which then couples with stealth from either source.  No other army has this benefit so on turns with nightfight, we effectively have the same base save (Better on troops) than our craftworld brethren - and its free.

Ok a few points, first our special formation always gives 5+ cover to troop choices and 6+ cover to non troop choices during the entire first game turn (regardless of night fight being in play). If night fight is in play, we get the above benefits and stealth. Night shields also grant stealth. These two instances do not stack.

Secondly the 5+ cover save is not so appealing when you consider all our transports can jink for a 4+ cover save, hide behind a ruin for a 4+ cover save (something we don't need a formation to get). If the night shield worked like the Tau or Eldar gear which add  +1 to their cover saves it would stack with stealth. As a result on a turn where night fight is in play we would get a 2+ cover save when jinking rather than a 3+. Or a 3+ cover save with our formation bonus rather than a 4+ (without needing to jink).

Thirdly, choosing to use the new Dark Eldar formation is not the clear cut decision you are making it out to be, you get a first turn gimmick that you don't really need, and access to 6 Fast Attack choices (the real reason for taking the formation). However, you lose Objective Secure, which is a game winning special rule with our highly  mobile dedicated transports. Not something to give up lightly.

Personally I would almost always go with a regular detachment and objective secure unless I really felt the need to take more than three fast attack choices, in that case though I would probably just take a second detachment instead.

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 22:55

I'm planning on running 1 standard detachment and one DE one, that way you can still have a couple objective secures and you usually don't need more than a couple anyway. Until my new stuff arrives and gets painted I'll still be allying Eldar anyway, so I can use those troop choices for stealing objectives in the meantime.

I agree that the cover save part of the formation is pretty useless though. There should be enough cover out that you'll get the same saves or better even without the formation.
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PostSubject: Re: Night Shields   Night Shields I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 00:30

Just as an aside, I played a game with the new codex this evening, and the 3+ jink was hilarious (for me). Was playing Dark Angels with the standard of devastation, so all his bolters were firing four shots. My archon's raider too fire from a full tactical squad (36 bolter shots and a plasma cannon, which hit), a lascannon/missile launcher dread, his command squad (another 16 bolter shots) a second tactical squad (28 bolter shots) and four krak missiles.

I took a grand total of two glancing hits from this after jinks.

Next turn my two medusae wiped out nine marines in return.

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