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 To CAD or Not To CAD?

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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 18:56

Now that the codex and supplement are out, we have additional options to the Combined Arms Detachment from the BRB. While both of the new detachments (and all formations) cause us to lose Objective Secure, they provide some different options that play to our strengths.

Do you feel like you will continue to run the army list using CADs or do you see yourself possibly using the new detachments?


To me, I would probably only run Realspace Raiders when I cannot run double CAD. 2HQ & 4 troops are pretty cheap for us if we want to run 6 fast attack options. The cover bonus from the detachment is nice; however, losing object secure and losing a reroll on strategic traits doesn't seem like a good trade off. Now, trying to get Labrythine Cunning from the DE trait table is definitely a viable alternative when running deep strikers.

What do you guys think? Are the new detachments worth not taking a CAD?
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 19:36

By my reading, you can use CAD to reroll on the DE table.

That being said, 2 CAD detachment is so easy, especially with the court if you want to min/max, I don't see a benefit to 6 FA.

Further, the first turn cover doesn't excite me over obj.sec. just not an even trade off IMO.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 19:56

So.. Does the DE detachment allow for allies? It isn't list and looks like that is part of CAD.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 20:44

@Myrvn wrote:
So.. Does the DE detachment allow for allies? It isn't list and looks like that is part of CAD.

Allies are just another detachment. So as long as you meet the requirements of whatever detachments/formations you choose, you can bring whatever armies.

I could do a DE Realspace Raiders detachment, and a Space Marine CAD, and follow it up with a Tau Firebase Support Cadre formation if I had the points. I would need to follow ally levels concerning deployment and movement restrictions but otherwise, i can mix and match armies within detachments/formations in 7th edition.
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winterman
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 22:27

The FOC has merit for most tournaments, as duplicating detachments or limits on total detachments are common -- for those events the 7ed dex and its detachment is a real blessing.

In addition getting 6 FA without adding an extra HQ and 2 troops is going to be important for some builds and point levels. At a minimum thats 140 points and probably more to make it worth while -- 1500 point game that would be pretty big chunk of extra points.

Also the cover save thing is decent, not game changing but can help a bit. Obsec is also really good but for DE I am not sure its as pivotal as it would be for other armies.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 23:09

Ok, looking further at detachments. I see now CAD is separated out from allies, but it does have the LoW and Fortification listed for Combined Arms. At first glance I thought Allies were under that heading as well.

So DE detachments don't include a LoW (not a problem at the moment) or a Fort? Mostly academic for me, but curious. I'll have to check on other army detachments to see what they include.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 23:56

I'm still inclined toward OS because you can score without killing anybody. Great for late game grabbing. Late game you might even try to charge them anyway.

But as Winterman said. In 1200-1600 range I might not want to invest in second HQ & troops as all the goodies are in FA. So if you want to stay msu, you need the slots.
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mithosiris
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 00:25

Sorry guys but where can i find that using those detachments we lose objective secure? I'm a bit lost. Thank you Razz
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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 04:23

Objective Secured is a special rule listed under the Combined Arms Detachmenet, whereas the Realspace Raiders Detachment does not have it listed (instead having Hunt from the Shadows, etc).

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:16

6 fast attacks is tooooooooooo gooood for me to past up Smile

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:19

Speaking for myself, it will be Realspace Raiders all the way.

I just don't think objective secured is very useful on our troops, so I see no need to hold on to the CAD, and conversely envisage taking plenty of fast attack between scourges, Reavers and Razorwings.

The cover shenanigans are a bonus.

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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:32

I don't know how you can not find ObSec useful on our Dedicated Transports that count as Troops and thus get it. Being able to zoom over 30-36" and take an objective from under the enemy's nose is beautiful--especially in the Maelstrom mission where you can claim the enemy's cards.

I think anything above 1250-1500 I'll be using two CADs to get my 6 FA slots. But I need to do some testing.

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 08:57

ObSec is really helpful when you play against resilient troops (serpents?) camping their Objectives and you cannot eliminate them. At least you can contest the point, which is not possible without ObSec.

To me, the most important in ObSec is not the abilty to grab objectives, but to contest them when your opponent feels a bit too confident about his position on the board.

Real Space Raider does not allow this. You have to kill entire units, no choice.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 09:06

@LSK wrote:

To me, the most important in ObSec is not the abilty to grab objectives, but to contest them when your opponent feels a bit too confident about his position on the board.

Real Space Raider does not allow this. You have to kill entire units, no choice.

I mostly agree with this, although I think obsec is tactically important for both claiming an denying objectives. An opponent with a ton of obsec and fast units is going to be a pain to deal with without obsec of your own.

It's a shame that of the only 2 units we have that can get obsec, only 1 is left still viable.
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spooniermist
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 10:26

I think I'll be running the Realspace Raiders Detachment. Objective Secured is really useful for some armies, but I tend to play the dark kin at break neck speed, killing everything then going for objectives later on: I generally don't contest objectives, I try and kill whatever's on it. Also, 5+ cover saves are too good to give up for free on the first turn. I think the 6 FA slots will be great in 1,750+ games, as 3+ Scourge units with Haywire Blasters are going to be pretty amazing.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 10:43

@spooniermist wrote:
Also, 5+ cover saves are too good to give up for free on the first turn.

Unless you play on a cricket pitch you should be able to get at least 5+ by simply deploying in or behind any sort of cover. If it applied to Fast Attack and not just Troops then I might consider it but creating a detachment that allows 6 FA slots and then not giving the command benefits to FA units is utterly bizarre.

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spooniermist
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 11:29

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@spooniermist wrote:
Also, 5+ cover saves are too good to give up for free on the first turn.

...If it applied to Fast Attack and not just Troops then I might consider it ...

I'd not realised that it was only troops. That's fairly... Unintuitive.

Surely it's not a bad thing to have a 5+ save? Means that you don't have to hide behind terrain as that can be quite limiting. Having the option to speed straight towards the enemy firing blindly without having to cover jump sounds quite appealing to me. Obviously, it won't make much difference when we play across counties, but there you go.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 11:36

@spooniermist wrote:
Surely it's not a bad thing to have a 5+ save?

It's not a bad thing but I don't consider it to be worth the loss of Objective Secured.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 11:44

ObSec makes wyches slightly more usable thanks to their invun - my tactic there would be to use them to charge an objective camper that you're confident you won't be able to remove late in the game. Clearly you're not going to use them to camp on an objective, but by charging an enemy unit that's holding one you can at the very least deny them the points, leaving your other units free to concentrate fire and claim others.

I've had very few games so far where obsec has made any difference (though the guys at my glub generally don't play maelstrom missions) though I also think that because of our potential late game strength, it could be a bonus for us.

For me it's going to come down to my playtesting, if I want more fast attack I'll probably just go with the raiders detachment and take the cover benefit, it does at least mean I don't have to leave myself out of position just to gain cover on Turn 1.

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MarcoAvrelis
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 11:50

I'd go for RSR.

I don't care much for ObSec. I play maelstrom (won my two last games with 16-4 and 11-3), and if there's something contesting an obj I need, I simply kill it.

Murder; that's how my Dark Eldar roll.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 12:18

I will be running the RSR det as I love our FA options and i want to take at least 6.

I will happily trade Obsec for speed + firepower.
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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 13:46

I usually play Eternal War, as I hate the Maelstrom cards system. It adds random generated victory points in a game which is already dominated by randomness.
So i'll go CAD most of the time (CAD + Ally detachment = 4 FA slot which is not too bad).

In Maelstrom, RSR could be good, due to the ability it gives to move faster from objective to objective. But Maelstrom is ... well, I don't like it.

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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 13:55

Thank god i have a list that can do both.
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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 14:01

i have been looking at the formation as well. I think its worth loosing obsec.

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PostSubject: Re: To CAD or Not To CAD?   To CAD or Not To CAD? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 14:17


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