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 What to do with Wracks?

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sweetbacon
Wych
sweetbacon

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PostSubject: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 11:14

Amid the (well-deserved) hate and discontent over what was done to Wyches, Hellions, HQ choices, etc., I haven't seen much discussion about Wracks.  Put simply, I don't "get" Wracks.  Before they were good because they were a cheap MSU troops choice that was, by DE standards, decently survivable with FNP and T4.  Plus, they were a good source of Liquifiers.  Now?  Liquifiers are worse and you can't take them as troops.  You also have to take a minimum of five instead of three.  The new Ossefactor seems pretty good, but not good enough to pay a 50 point tax for just so you can take one.    I've read through the Coven Supplement formations and nothing that required Wracks really jumped out at me.   So, am I missing something here?  What use do Wracks have now in their Elites slot?
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 13:56

They don't have any use. It's another useless unit in the codex.

They'll probably be more useful once the Cover supplement is released though.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 13:59

You should take a look at https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10139-arming-wracks the thread just some scrolls down on this page. I'll bump it for you ;-)
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 16:36

Much appreciated, Mandor. I read through the thread and it was helpful, but I am still not sold on the utility of Wracks. If they could take at least two Ossefactors per five man squad then I'd be interested but as it is, I just think I'll go with Blasterborn if I want shooting from my Elites slot or Incubi if I want a decent assault unit in this slot. Wracks, while not overtly awful like Wyches/Hellions/Bloodbrides, etc., just don't seem to have any real use that couldn't be done better by another unit.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 17:30

@sweetbacon wrote:
Much appreciated, Mandor.  I read through the thread and it was helpful, but I am still not sold on the utility of Wracks.  If they could take at least two Ossefactors per five man squad then I'd be interested but as it is, I just think I'll go with Blasterborn if I want shooting from my Elites slot or Incubi if I want a decent assault unit in this slot.  Wracks, while not overtly awful like Wyches/Hellions/Bloodbrides, etc., just don't seem to have any real use that couldn't be done better by another unit.  

Wracks have been great in my couple of games that I've played with the new book (non-supplement).  They aren't obj sec;however, they have the power to take out just about any non-vehicle unit when running 2 ossefactors.  

To me, they are a lot more effective at actually killing things than normal warriors or trueborn; however, blasterborn units are still a very solid unit.  To me, trueborn became less needed due to the boost Scourge received.  Moving my Anti-tank to Scourge (from blasterborn) allows Wracks to turn into my main Anti-Infantry/bike/etc.  This allows me to spend ~600pts on MSU warrior squads in venoms for objective grabbers (if I run a CAD).  After that, I can drop in a heavy support or two and be good.

If Wracks didn't get the Ossefactor, I would say they got nerfed.  With it, I personally think they went from a deckchair unit to something very worthwhile offensively. 10 Wracks with 2 Ossefactors in a Raider (with Disentagrator Cannon) unleashes 5 strong AP2 shots that will cause another 2D6 hits to the unit (if both ossefactors kill their targets). That's a ton of firepower to any unit, not just TEQ.

I am looking forward to reading through the specific rules for the Supplement PFP rules.  If I can use the table without the detachment I may be interested in such.  If not, I would need to look into some form of secondary detachment to ensure I have enough Anti-tank and Anti-air (which pure coven lack).
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 19:46

Llama, thank you for the input. I concede that this may be a case of something which performs better than it looks on the page. Do you feel that having to pay 130 points (plus the cost of a transport) is worth the to Ossefactor shots?
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 20:34

@sweetbacon wrote:
Llama, thank you for the input.  I concede that this may be a case of something which performs better than it looks on the page.  Do you feel that having to pay 130 points (plus the cost of a transport) is worth the to Ossefactor shots?  

I haven't had enough games yet to say 100%; however, the couple games I have played with such I'm feeling that they are worth it. ~200pts for everything is a large chunk of points in any game; however, it provides a solid and versatile enough unit to clear what needs to be cleared.

Add in the fact that the Ossefactor is an assault weapon and Raiders are open topped (thus assault vehicles), having 10 Wracks can do pretty good in assault too. T4 and 2 Poisoned close combat weapons can be pretty nasty with such numbers. Add in Furious Charge starting in Turn 4 and FNP and there's a unit that can take over an objective in a dependable fashion.

All that said, Wracks still need to make sure they have the right support for them. For the AP2 shooting from the Dizzy and Ossefactors, there still needs some Anti-tank to bust open rhinos, Ghost Arks, and the likes in order to make sure there's something to shoot at.
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Obeliske
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 23:34

I'm gonna direct you to my post.

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10088-question-about-wracks?highlight=wracks

60 pts to build melee unit with 3 assault weapons. IMO DS'ing a unit of them with a duel liquifyer wielding acothyst and an ossifactor sounds like fun.
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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 05:52

One thing that is becoming apparent to me is how much more reliant we are on FNP. I played a game this past weekend against GK and found that all of the high strength shots completely neutralized my FNP due to the large number of T3 models that I had (I usually run a Kabal list). So I made another pass through the codex to see what I could take that had at least T4 and PFP, and came upon Wracks. I would usually blow right past the coven units in the codex due to the very poor armor save, but the FNP will save more than you think. Keep them in range of a Cronos to help lower that FNP to a 4+ and you'll be even more survivable.

The big draw back that I see is that they already come with FNP, so Wracks don't really gain much from PFP until turn 4. But then again, you could look at that as a bonus since they already start the game with FNP (5+).
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sweetbacon
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 11:41

@Obeliske wrote:
I'm gonna direct you to my post.

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t10088-question-about-wracks?highlight=wracks

60 pts to build  melee unit with 3 assault weapons. IMO DS'ing a unit of them with a duel liquifyer wielding acothyst and an ossifactor sounds like fun.

That's very interesting. I would be all in on this idea and on Wracks in general if either Liquifiers were still Str 4 or the Acothyst could also purchase an Ossefactor. If I want poisoned CC attacks, I'll go with either the Llhaeman or Grots (who can also purchase Liquifiers).
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Minks
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 15:01

@merse24 wrote:
The big draw back that I see is that they already come with FNP, so Wracks don't really gain much from PFP until turn 4.  But then again, you could look at that as a bonus since they already start the game with FNP (5+).

And that's what I intend to use my Wracks for. We have a lot more access to deepstrike now, but little I'd always be comfortable about starting on the table. I plan to use a large unit or so of wracks along with a couple of chronus/talos engines to form a hard, sacrificial zone of control to weather the first couple of turns, supported by mandrakes (cover saves) and ravagers (long range shooting), before deepstriking in the Kabalite stuff to overwhelm points of the enemy line through shooting en-masse. Their T4 makes all the difference in this role (in allowing FNP saves). The opposite of the last codex's alpha-strike, funnily enough.
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lelith
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 18:25

@merse24 wrote:
The big draw back that I see is that they already come with FNP, so Wracks don't really gain much from PFP until turn 4.  But then again, you could look at that as a bonus since they already start the game with FNP (5+).

And that drawback can be neutralized by bringing wracks from the coven detachment which provides wholly different PfP table. In conclusion, I'm gonna use more and more wracks!

For me, the only bad thing is the coven PfP table does not contain Furious Charge Sad



EDIT: So I've just come back from my first game with the new codex. I brought 5-man wrack squad who did a great job! Their venom DSed in Turn 2 (luckily without scattering). The combination of ossefactor and two splinter cannons blew down the avatar of khaine in that turn Wink I'm gonna post a batrep by this weekend.

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Norrin
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 20:44

I am a little miffed that I can no longer load a Venom with 4 wracks and a Haem.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 21:16

I'd say grab the supplement and do what I do. Load them all in scalpel squadrons and go for that turn 1 deep strike.

I might even pick up 5 more and two venoms and run 3 scalpels lol.

72 poison shots plus 6 ossefactors DS automatically turn 1. That's almost definitely first blood and a major disruption to your enemies backfield at the very least.


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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 21:19

I just see wracks as unit that, like wyches, just keeps getting kicked in the junk.

10 ppm is way too much for a T4 model with no shooting, no grenades and only S3 poison. Since you need to exceed the T value of your opponent to generate re-rolls, even with furious charge your wracks aren't getting re-rolls against anything T4 or better. To me, those 10 points are better spent on lahmians who trade FNP for a 5+ save (which they'll usually get in combat), grenades and better initiative, and much improved poison with even a chance at inflicting instant death!

Grotesques look great, but I've never fielded them. Talos are fantastic as long as you can stay away from AV13 & AV14. Wracks? I dunno...
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 21:19

@Norrin wrote:
I am a little miffed that I can no longer load a Venom with 4 wracks and a Haem.

This is an annoyance I'm seeing with both Wracks and Wyches.  If you want an IC to accompany them within a Raider, you have to settle for only 1 upgrade.  And if you want to take a venom, you're out of luck completely.  We had this issue to an extent with Wyches in the last book but it's a bit more annoying now since the extra weapons (for both units) at 10 models is worth not having an IC join.
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Unholyllama
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 21:20

@The Red King wrote:
I'd say grab the supplement and do what I do. Load them all in scalpel squadrons and go for that turn 1 deep strike.

I might even pick up 5 more and two venoms and run 3 scalpels lol.

72 poison shots plus 6 ossefactors DS automatically turn 1. That's almost definitely first blood and a major disruption to your enemies backfield at the very least.


This is my thought too. That formation (and ossefactors in general) are too tempting. I have never been disappointed by the ossefactors in the games I've played thus far.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 15 2014, 21:40

@lelith wrote:


For me, the only bad thing is the coven PfP table does not contain Furious Charge Sad

It's not that bad as FC only benefits vs T-3. Those races typically lack the AS and /or cc effectiveness, unless you play vs Eldar of course.
So I don't miss FC, I like fearless and the Coven Formations.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: What to do with Wracks?   What to do with Wracks? I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 00:16

I'll be taking the Scalpel Formation ALOT, 2 units of Wracks with venoms (Ossefactor on both) DS turn 1 to try and get D3 1st blood VP's is a cool idea to me.

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