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 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis

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Tounguekutter
Sybarite
Tounguekutter

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 04:34

Overall good review. I feel that if you want to play casually, you can still do that with a rather bland list that holds half of your stuff (mostly anti-infantry) in reserve while your ranged AT pops vehicles. But if you want to play competitively, look to our cousins for help. Deepstriking fire dragons with no scatter? Buying FA venoms and raiders for your scorpions or wraiththings? Access to some of the best Psykers in the game (the Shadowfield and Guide from Farseer were made for each other, I'm sure of it). Also, we still rock in Maelstrom missions, with empty venoms, raiders, and bikes (both ours and our cowardly cousins) diving deep for objective grabs. I just wish there was something in the fluff like Aspect warriors coming over to the dark side in exchange for all the fruits (heh) of the Dark City. Aspect warriors look good in black anyway.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 04:42

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
Can we please give that title to the Voidraven? It's the most disappointing unit in the codex. And if anyone has been following my posts they might suspect a personal vitriol and disdain for the unit. Because there is. I had a sexy conversion of a voidraven, and it was the only "non-competative" unit I included in my "competitive" list. I would have happily bought the new raven though, it's sexy. So let's give the title to it. It costs more $$ and it costs more points than bloodbrides. At least Bloodbrides unlock a useful unit (Venom).

Edit: In fact a unit of bloodbrides on a venom costs less than a Voidraven, and if you give the syren haywire grenades it will cause more wounds and hullpoints. So solved.

Disclaimer: Bloodbrides are still bad and should be avoided.
To my mind worst unit is not just about what costs more. The Dais was bad and it cost more than Mandrakes did, but it was still 'better' than them regardless.

Bad is usually a combo of 'what can they actually accomplish, how well do they do at what they're supposed to do, and what do they cost in kind of a grab bag consideration.

Mandrakes are supposed to be this stealthy murderfest unit. Except they totally suck in assault, though they do have the stealth an a not shameful shooting attack. So basically our assault assassins are, in reality, short range bad snipers and objective squatters. Whoop-de-flip.

Voidravens are supposed to be elite bombers...well....they do that. They cost too much and are too fragile, but they are actually capable of inflicting some damage and if the enemy is dumb enough to ignore them or somehow incapable of hurting them they are capable of ripping up ground mech pretty fearsomely. Yes, they suck, but I'm not sure if they suck more than Mandrakes.

Bloodbrides might be the crowning queens of fail though. +3 points for +1 attack on a unit that isn't good in assault and has no other benefits over the base line unit, which is at least Troop. I can't even understand why anyone would ever bother taking them, and they certainly don't do what they're supposed to do (which is, I presume, assault and kill stuff).

I think It's probably Mandrakes or Bloodbrides as the worst unit in the dex.

@egorey wrote:
Well, i for one like Mandrakes - my reasoning is simple - they are an excellent unit to sit on an early objective and they must be assaulted to be removed so if you have units nearby that can help - you have baited something into your charge range. I like any unit that has base options for deployment that make your opponent choose. When an opponent has to choose he can make mistakes.
I will admit, I don't see much value in baiting an enemy when I'm already playing one of the fastest armies in the game. I'm more than fast enough to come get whomever wherever they are.

I will agree, barring just shooting a few flamers into them, that, yeah, you probably need to assault them to take out Mandrakes. But...meh, it's not like your opponent needs to risk an assault unit to do it. Basic Guardsmen are going to be able to overpower them pretty effectively in hand to hand combat (because until Turn 3 they are just flat out superior). So, yeah, I can force someone to assault a unit that is incapable of stopping anything in assault.

I almost want to crunch the numbers for Firewarriors. I think they might be competitive versus Mandrakes in assault. I'm not even joking.

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Expletive Deleted
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 05:49

@Thor665 wrote:


Voidravens are supposed to be elite bombers...well....they do that. They cost too much and are too fragile, but they are actually capable of inflicting some damage and if the enemy is dumb enough to ignore them or somehow incapable of hurting them they are capable of ripping up ground mech pretty fearsomely. Yes, they suck, but I'm not sure if they suck more than Mandrakes.


They don't do that though. A syren with a HWG will rip up ground mech better than a voidraven and at AV10 you'll find few weapons that can't hurt them. Their missile loadouts are completely incongruous with their role on the battlefield. AP- missiles? 60 points for what basically amount to 4 one off plasma cannons? If the enemy ignores your bloodbrides they might actually become decent assault unit by turn 4. I know it's silly to argue what the worst unit is in the codex, because especially at the end of the day you nor I will be using either. I just can't help myself. The voidraven just seems to be the biggest blunder in the codex to me. Especially after the changes to the ravager. Points do matter. You can buy 4 units of mandrakes (why would you? and technically you can't [FOC].) But at least they can hold an objective. Why pay 160 points for what amounts to one potential orbital strike? -4 to scatter. Doesn't even have the 1d6 scatter rule anymore.

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HERO
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:02

@Expletive Deleted wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:


Voidravens are supposed to be elite bombers...well....they do that. They cost too much and are too fragile, but they are actually capable of inflicting some damage and if the enemy is dumb enough to ignore them or somehow incapable of hurting them they are capable of ripping up ground mech pretty fearsomely. Yes, they suck, but I'm not sure if they suck more than Mandrakes.


They don't do that though. A syren with a HWG will rip up ground mech better than a voidraven and at AV10 you'll find few weapons that can't hurt them. Their missile loadouts are completely incongruous with their role on the battlefield. AP- missiles? 60 points for what basically amount to 4 one off plasma cannons? If the enemy ignores your bloodbrides they might actually become decent assault unit by turn 4. I know it's silly to argue what the worst unit is in the codex, because especially at the end of the day you nor I will be using either. I just can't help myself. The voidraven just seems to be the biggest blunder in the codex to me. Especially after the changes to the ravager. Points do matter. You can buy 4 units of mandrakes (why would you? and technically you can't [FOC].) But at least they can hold an objective. Why pay 160 points for what amounts to one potential orbital strike? -4 to scatter. Doesn't even have the 1d6 scatter rule anymore.

I actually think Dark Scythe Voidraven at stock is a decent buy.

160 points for 2x Blast Lances (although 24" is quite crap), and a Void Mine to boot is not bad at all.  Not GREAT, but not bad.

I wouldn't buy any of the missile options though, they're so overpriced it's insane.  That's a huge shame because read the fluff for Implosion Missiles and picture Thor 2's Attack on Asgard.  Mmm.. lovely Implosion Grenades..

The best flyer we have is still the Razorwing with Lances.  Lances because they can still hit air targets and engage ground targets enough.  I would only look to Shatter Field there I have enough points, and keep them at Monoscythe.  I used to have at least 1 Necrotoxin in there because of the Pinning, but it looks like they've lost that too (WHY?!?!?!).

Quote :
Bloodbrides might be the crowning queens of fail though. +3 points for +1 attack on a unit that isn't good in assault and has no other benefits over the base line unit, which is at least Troop. I can't even understand why anyone would ever bother taking them, and they certainly don't do what they're supposed to do (which is, I presume, assault and kill stuff).

Missed opportunity not to give them Haywires, at least then they would have some meaning.

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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:22

@HERO wrote:

I actually think Dark Scythe Voidraven at stock is a decent buy.

160 points for 2x Blast Lances (although 24" is quite crap), and a Void Mine to boot is not bad at all.  Not GREAT, but not bad.

Maybe you can make me understand how that's a decent buy. Range is shorter. You lose the ability to target flyers. It would only most likely be good against squadrons of vehicles, which I rarely face, because most people won't put their vehicles close enough for small blast to hit multiple units. If you're using them to get past 2+ armor you're better off using disintegrators, because they're on cheaper frames. That's what I see. Maybe you see something I don't.

Edit: Oh, and if you jink, you can't even fire them.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 07:30

@HERO wrote:

Quote :
Bloodbrides might be the crowning queens of fail though. +3 points for +1 attack on a unit that isn't good in assault and has no other benefits over the base line unit, which is at least Troop. I can't even understand why anyone would ever bother taking them, and they certainly don't do what they're supposed to do (which is, I presume, assault and kill stuff).

Missed opportunity not to give them Haywires, at least then they would have some meaning.

I would have been far happier to see bloodbrides come equipped with HWGs to differentiate them from wyches than what we ended up with, but I don't think they should have been taken away from wyches at all without doing something significant to make wyches more viable. Right now, they're great models that just suck at everything.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 01:37

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
... Right now, they're great models that just suck at everything.
lol! that sounded so wrong in my head.

Am I the only person but Implosion missiles, aren't they just miss printed? It should say Large Blast instead of Blast, isn't it? Otherwise somebody is really over estimating AP2 on missiles, you still would get easy enough cover, right? And you can go to ground to avoid their damage.

Anyway, talking about blasts, I think the Darkscythe should be able to target flyers. In the rules it only says that blast (and templates) can't be snapfired and that you need to snapfire if you don't have skyfire to shoot at flyers. So if you are a flyers yourself, you can fire at flyers, with all your weapons, right?

Another thing: bomb runs do only scatter d6". I was hoping that our bomber could flat out after dropping the bomb, sadly no exceptions there.
I was also thinking that S9 AP2 is a nice way to get rid of flyers but with AV10 you just can't afford to get hit, just even once.

And indeed, what is up with the point difference between Razorwing and Voidraven? I was thinking, yeah the raven has better weapons and a bomb. But the razorwing starts with 4 missiles...
It's almost like someone at GW decided: these models aren't goodlooking enough, they can't be sold. Let's put a hefty price-tag on them AND give them crap rules. drunken
Come-on, what is up with the missile loads? They only come in sets of two AND you have to pay more for the worse kind? Also I don't really understand why you need AI missiles on a AT platform? If they could shoot Darkscythe missiles for these prices, then things would get interesting.

We'll just have to wait until the next codex, by than GW's stock costs for the Ravens will be high enough to force them to do something about them ;-)
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Creeping Darkness
Wych
Creeping Darkness

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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 03:21

@Thor665 wrote:

I will agree, barring just shooting a few flamers into them, that, yeah, you probably need to assault them to take out Mandrakes. But...meh, it's not like your opponent needs to risk an assault unit to do it. Basic Guardsmen are going to be able to overpower them pretty effectively in hand to hand combat (because until Turn 3 they are just flat out superior). So, yeah, I can force someone to assault a unit that is incapable of stopping anything in assault.

I almost want to crunch the numbers for Firewarriors. I think they might be competitive versus Mandrakes in assault. I'm not even joking.

Or obliterate them from 60" away with a Wave Serpent. But that is more a Wave Serpent issue than a Mandrake issue.

For what its worth:

Mandrakes vs Guard

Mandrakes on average inflict 0.593 unsaved wounds per drake (not charging)
Guard on average inflict 0.25 unsaved wounds per guardsmen on turn 1, or 0.208 and 0.167 on turn 2 and three, respectively (not charging)

Mandrakes vs Fire Warriors
Mandrakes on average inflict 0.444 unsaved wounds per drake (not charging)
FW on average inflict 0.25 unsaved wounds per warrior on turn 1, or 0.208 and 0.167 on turn 2 and three, respectively (not charging)

At wounds per point, Mandrakes manage 0.0494 w/p against guard, 0.037 w/p against fire warriors.

A proper assault unit like incubi (not proper enough for grenades, apparently) run at 0.0444 against both - not as efficient per point against poor armour saves, although more effective in absolute terms (and significantly more durable). Against the same targets, Bloodbrides run at 0.0513 w/p vs guardsmen (assuming irrelevant drugs) and 0.0385 w/p vs FW.

So, if we can arrange for our opponent's army to consist entirely of unarmed guardsmen, Bloodbrides and Mandrakes will do fine Smile


(for a more generic comparison, against MEQ Mandrakes run 0.0139 w/p, Bloodbrides 0.0123, and Incubi 0.0333)
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 08:56

El-Jairo: Implosion missiles were small blast in the last edition too, adn cover has changed since 6th. As there's now no such thing as area terrain, and models have to be 25% obscured to claim a cover save, shooting from the height of a flyer means cover is much more difficult to obtain against them. The only thing you need to be careful of is not shooting units in ruins where the 25% rule doesn't apply.

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 13:40

Thanks Burning Eye on clearing that out. I was thinking that would be the case in 7th. But are you sure about 25% no applying to Ruins? That sounds quite harsh.

Maybe that will be fixed, once GW decides to make an Errata on 7th Ed.

Still with cover being more difficult to claim vs flyers, it remains a steep cost for just Blast weapons. You will have a hard time covering enough models, to justify the cost. Unless enemies DS a lot before the Raven has entered.

Still our Flyers feel off to me. AV 10 all round but no extra mobility or defence worth noting. With Supersonic you can flat out off the table better when you needed to take you improved jink save. So sad we didn't get vector dancer or a sort of cloaking technology.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis   7th Edition Codex Review & Analysis - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 13:49

My pleasure.
And yes, I'm sure you don't need the 25% when in ruins, i think it's meant to account for models taking cover behind ruined walls etc but I use it to great effect with my lascannon centurions - means they get that 4+ save against stuff like plasma and las cannons that tend to get pointed their way. I doubt it will get changed in an errata, it's set out explicitly so I can only conclude it's intentional.

Implosion missiles don't need to do many kills to make their points back against something like marines (two marines each will do it and then some) but against hordes etc yes they'll struggle. Think I'll be taking the voidraven without to be honest, and use the razorwing for missiles

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