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 Facing GK probably next week!

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Padea
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PostSubject: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 19:11

Hi!

I have been checking out different sites and reading like mad different topics.
And I must say GK seems scary now with the RifleDreads and Purifiers.

My army I am going to use is
1750
Haemi, LG
Haemi, LG

4 Truebasters, Venom, SC
4 Truebasters, Venom, SC
4 Truebasters, Venom, SC

5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC
5 Warriors, Blaster, Venom SC
7 Wyches, Haywire, Heka, Agoniser, Impailer, Raider, FF
7 Wyches, Haywire, Heka, Agoniser, Impailer, Raider, FF

Ravager, FF
Ravager, FF
Ravager, FF

I have had 3 games experience with DE, and I have 3 wins!
First 2 games I faced SW, he gave up turn 3 (Almost whiped, both games)
3rd game was vs Eldars, he gave up turn 2 (Bad deployment and one side was gone)

And now I am to face my old nemesis, we have been playing board games for like 12 years, so its personal! Razz

I am pretty sure he will have atleast one squad of Termies/Paladins since i know he just loves them, probably 1-2 RifleDreads and atleast 1 Purifiers. And he will definatly have a HQ that boosts other units for sure.

Anyway I am guessing my priority should be something like:
Ravagers > RifleDreads > Transports
Trueblasters > Transports > Mech

And if I go first trueblasters wont have enough range, so how far should I be moving them before turn 2 shooting begings?

If I go 2nd and his transports/Rifledreads are to close I will probably try locking him up with my wyches.

And btw what about his Fortitude can his tanks/tranports suffer a persils and if so what happends, glancins or what? And does CoM work vs them?

Anything I should be worried about or have in mind? Or does everything look crystal clear? Smile

Thanks for all answers!

Sorry for bad english/grammar!

Jim.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 19:49

@Padea wrote:
Anyway I am guessing my priority should be something like:
Ravagers > RifleDreads > Transports
Trueblasters > Transports > Mech
With the way your army is I'd put a bit more focus on shooting open transports so your Venoms have something to fire at.
Wyches with the nets and haywires can try to gang jump the Dreads.

Quote :
And if I go first trueblasters wont have enough range, so how far should I be moving them before turn 2 shooting begings?
Depends on how your opponent sets up, really.
It's possible for Trueborn to be in range turn 1 on a first turn if they disembark or if you feel comfortable with the rotate trick/cheat.
If they're not in range I'd move them up 12", hopefully with some cover, but also with a mind to shoot your S.Cannon's at any infantry available (or that will be available once you pop transports)

Quote :
If I go 2nd and his transports/Rifledreads are to close I will probably try locking him up with my wyches.
Lock Dreads with assault.
Shoot transports and dakka the passengers with Venoms.

Quote :
And btw what about his Fortitude can his tanks/tranports suffer a persils and if so what happends, glancins or what? And does CoM work vs them?
When a vehicles suffers perils it takes a glancing hit.
CoM...probably works on vehicles. I've had it ruled both ways, I personally think it's pretty clear that it does affect them. I would definitely talk it out with your opponent beforehand though.

Quote :
Anything I should be worried about or have in mind? Or does everything look crystal clear? Smile
Don't assault Purifiers with your Wyches - that's a good one to keep in mind.
Also, remember when shooting that shake/stunned results probably will go away - so when shooting things you usually want to destroy weapons and/or just destroy the vehicle outright.
Other than that I think you're mostly on the right track.
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Padea
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 14 2011, 22:38

Ok so something like this:

1st round use the lances with range to take out the transports, and they will probably used smoke launchers.
Try getting wyches in to combat with the dreads.

2nd round
Kill the last transports and then switch focus to dreads if not already locked in combat.
Wyches locked in combat with the dreads or if downed get inte to transport/assault next target.

3rd round
Get some distance from units on foot and just shoot them down.

4th round
Win! Haha or something Razz

Oh, rotate trick! Didn´t think about that. Heh.. So you gain like 1 inch with venoms i guess?
Though shouldnt Raiders be the best for the rotate trick?

Yeah I spoke with one of my friends about the CoM and he agrees about what we are saying about this. We just need to clear it with our friend that plays GK, he will probably not be happy.. Since one thing isnt going his way. Hah!..

Anyway thanks for a great feedback and quick answers!

As I said we will probably play this weekend, so ill try to do a battle report about it. Smile

Jim.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 15 2011, 16:06

GKs are a tough nut to crack, but I think we are one of the few armies that can do it. Dreads should be your first targets, as in most GKs lists its the only thing they have over 24' range. After that just pick him off one at a time.

Remember that wyches get their dodge save against purifiers... so its not that bad to assault them, just dont do it unless you have to.

CoM is interesting wording. Ive seen it argued both ways as well. One thing to remember if it works, it takes any unit embarked inside (the SW ruling for the Last Laugh says if a vehicle is removed from game, the unit embarked is destoryed as well) But its a long shot to begin with, I wouldnt waste points on it.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 13:38

Ok, I have just played my game and it was a loss.
KP, Pitched, 1750. KP:7-15

Well his army had 3 RifleDreads, 1 GK unit, 4 Razorbacks (3 with psyammo on Heavy bolters, and one TL). And some HQ that made Purifiers Troops. So a lot S7 shots..

Anyway he won roll-off, tried to take it but failed.

He moved his Dreads closer, and his Razorbacks aswell.
1st shooting he exploded 1 Ravager 1 Venom, stunned 1 Venom, 1 dark lance on Raider, and one Venom shaken. "yay" So my turn.

He was close with two Rifledreads, so i moved 12 inch disembarked, tried getting good angles and more than 24" from his stormbolters.
So I tried shooting at the Dreads, I got 1 Immobile and same stunned. Popped 1 Razor with crew. I used 4 Venoms to kill them, I Managed to inflict 3 WOUNDS!? They died, lol. (sick bad roll from my part)
Fleet with wyches. And the wyches are 3 Full rounds on 1 dread in CC, only getting weapon destroyed and stuns..

And I managed about 8-10 saves on all my transports with Flicker, I am not joking.. Sad
All my penetrations was like weapon destroyed or stunned. And his Fortitude saves him all the time.

Anyway the game just got worse and worse for every turn. Since I rolled under average all the time.. One time 12 hits with venom and I wound 1, 7 dices was 1s.. :O

Well I guess the dice god wasnt on my side today..
So I am on a break now while my other mate that is BA is going to face him now. Let´s see how that goes!

Well thats my short summary, you win some you loose some.
And again sorry for bad spelling.

Jim.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 17:45

DE have a lot of trouble making up tempo advantage vs. GK - and his list was well built to punish DE (and that dex can custom build to hurt DE quite well - though it hurts them versus other armies).

I'm not sure what the terrain situation was - but when you lost first turn you should have been trying to hide your vehicles and/or place them in such a way that at least you're out of range of some of his gak.

Your opening shooting...it's a little hard to tell from the batrep but just a few thoughts;

1. You should not have shot at the Dread you planned to assault with Wyches.
2. You should have shot more at Razorbacks than Dreads - they were worth more KP and would open up shooting options for your Venoms.
3. I already told you about the stunned/shaken thing, but now you're probably painfully aware of how that works. Always keep that in mind when fighting GK.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeSun Aug 21 2011, 21:20

Well it was at least if not more than 1/4 of terrain on the board, 3-4 ruins, 1 swamp, and a lot of trees about 3*5 inch and a gun tower with some sandbags at.

His side contained the swamp, the gun tower, one ruin.
Middle two ruins with some small trees here and there. and a crashed land speeder with some small bushes with it.
My side two Ruins and two tree bases that you can see through, not really that thick. And few sandbags.

(I am telling this from my point of view, so from left to right).

He had two Dreads in the swam. Between the swamp and gun tower. One empty razorback (turned) providing cover for the other two behind it. 10 purifiers at the gun tower and sandbags, next to the gun tower was an empty razorback with TL - Lascannon. Then 10 GKs in a trench. And in the open next to the trench a Rifle dread with somewhat cover from a Heavy bolter Razor. That was his line.

(And my side from the left to the right)
Two bases of trees and two ruins, all withing deployment zone, and some sandbags/trenches at the right about 15" before the two ruins in the middle.

My deployment was something like this, both Raiders behind each of the trees (turned so i could earn an inch or two) Behind them I had one Trueblaster and two warrior units in their venoms. Trying to hide somewhat. I managed to hide two of my Ravager pretty OK behind the first ruin. Then to my second ruin that was further in to the middle it was harder to hide there but I got away from two Rifledreads, though one would see me. And to my right i had one warrior unit in venom (that super speeded behind a ruin in the middle to be able to outflank (but they utterly failed their attempts like 4 times (four times on a razorback).

So 1st turn:

He moved his Dreads closer, and his Razorbacks aswell.
1st shooting he exploded 1 Ravager, 1 Raider destroyed (wyches on foot). I bailed out in the the cover.
1 Venom exploded bailed out in the cover, stunned 1 Venom, 1 dark lance on the other raider was destroyed, and one Venom shaken.

He was close with two Rifledreads, so i moved 12 inch disembarked with the wyches I managed to get in to combat first turn with the Dread. Tough it got like Immobilized, armament destroyed and other stun/shaken. It took a total of 3 full turns before it was dead.

And turn two I lost one more ravager, 1 more stunned venom and one venom exploded.
I managed to get one two razors dead, one with units in it. I used like 3 venoms and crew. I didn't kill anyone :/ And I was in CC with purifiers with one wyche unit, it was killed in his turn 3 in CC so I managed to consolidate in to the swamp with like 5 wyches and my Haemi. All died by dakka later except for the Haemi that did an heroic flame on five purifier. 5 hits 5 wounds ap1 Even so that didn't really help.

By now I didn't really have that much to dakka with. And on top of that I rolled really bad the whole game (I am not joking, jeez).

And by now I was really hard to keep up so I ended up loosing. *sob*

I hope that helped some, well I guess I learned more about the fortitude"#¤% And I probably need to try to hide even more behind terrain. And as you say have more focus on those razors for kps and the wyches into CC.

More feedback?

And thanks for all the great and fast responses!

Jim.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 03:42

I am having trouble fighting GK as well, at 1750 I had to face 3 Psyrifle Dreads, 2 Venerable Psyrifle Dreads, a Dreadknight, and 4 Purifier squads in razorbacks. I have no idea what I can do when he can consistently drop 3 - 4 of my gunships a turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 08:21

@astorre wrote:
I am having trouble fighting GK as well, at 1750 I had to face 3 Psyrifle Dreads, 2 Venerable Psyrifle Dreads, a Dreadknight, and 4 Purifier squads in razorbacks. I have no idea what I can do when he can consistently drop 3 - 4 of my gunships a turn.
Isn't that 4 HS choices?

I've got a GK player in my gaming group. Thankfully he doesn't have any psyrifle dreads yet (although after I wiped all his current guys in the last game I can't see it being long before he does).

They are definitely one of the harder matchups, although possibly not as hard in a tourney environment as they'd be forced to write an all comers rather than a DE bashing list? I don't go to tournaments so can't comment on what GK show up with.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 14:00

I took on a Salamanders/GK combo with my DE and a friends Orks last week. The Orks are already woefully short on AT and all that S7 stuff from the Grey Knights just tore me up as I either missed the vehicles or stunned them. I did manage to pop a few but their deployment zone was a car park and so I was effectively taking on two armies worth of vehicles.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when I play them solo but I have already changed my list to include more Lances. I need more if I am going to face so many vehicles and need the redundancy incase I lose my paper planes.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 17:43

If you were playing with orks, I would think you would do pretty well, besides purifiers, and any salamander stuff that I have forgotten about, he has no answer for hoards
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 18:38

@J Mc wrote:
They are definitely one of the harder matchups, although possibly not as hard in a tourney environment as they'd be forced to write an all comers rather than a DE bashing list? I don't go to tournaments so can't comment on what GK show up with.
I think this is the core of the GK "threat" that people fail to understand. I hear so often, over and over, "how will you beat 'this' Grey Knight list. And my answer is...well, about 50/50 I'll be able to beat it as long as I go first and don't ahve any bad rolls in the first 2 turns.

Then people wail at me and ask how they can beat it all the time.

Well, you'll have trouble with that - GK can build a list that is *very* potent at ripping up DE, and that *will* be a problem.

On the flip side, in a tournament setting, what's going to haunt them is AV14 and probably pod lists and...maybe some horde lists though I'm less confident on that one, and also lists that do a lot to mess with psychic powers (like 'nilla Eldar, which is awesome for them). And, hey, look at that, more AV 14 in lists? More Pods in lists? DE are *great* versus those - so if GK are going to redefine the tournament landscape - on the whole it will be a refinement that will help us.

Also, quite frankly, I don't think GK have what it takes to topple mech IG and Wolves off the top tier. Maybe I'm wrong (I'll actually be happy if I am) but for a new Codex to truly redefine things it has to be able to eat the current top lists, and I don't really think GK will do that. As a result, they'll be a troublesome rock to our scissors in tourney play, and if you're playing a friend and you custom build lists to fight each other he'll probably eat your soul a lot. But in TAC competition I think their 'eat DE' build is not the best TAC build they can make - and consequently the 'eat DE' build is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 19:26

And not all GK builds are bad for us.

Draigo wing is almost an autowin a reasonably skilled DE player.

The more and ore I think about it, the more and more I think DE should build with a Mech BA and IG type list in mind.

Wolves are a real threat, but since BA and GK have so much in common and are seen more often, in terms of choices, it seems a logical path of construction. You will need a fair amount of AT, I would reckon at least 10 platforms, and then you need the AI to deal with the troops once popped out of their transports.


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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 20:52

Grey Knights can be a tough nut to crack and the pysfileman dread is not just good against us. Twin-linked St 8 auto-cannons hurt almost everyone so I'd expect to see that in almost everylist. I think it really depends whats in the rest of the list whether we have a reasonable chance against them. I played a pallidins and terinator heavy list at the weekend in a tournament. A total mismatch in my favour and I won comfortably. However against the list you were facing then it would be a different story. Got to agree though in that list transports first then dreads, and I know it's a lot harder than just saying it but thats the priority ranking.

I think DE will struggle to beat the IG Hydra/vendetta/chimera spam lists without everything being in our favour. I mean good BLOS terrain on the table, getting first turn and a very solid 1st round of shooting. Without that it will be an uphill struggle from the off. Even with that one poor round of dice rolls and it could be all over.

Wolves long fangs can be dealt with, again 1st turn is important to get them splintered down before they get to bring down our skimmers. Agree about BA, very nasty.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeMon Aug 22 2011, 21:39

@Padea wrote:

He was close with two Rifledreads, so i moved 12 inch disembarked with the wyches I managed to get in to combat first turn with the Dread. Tough it got like Immobilized, armament destroyed and other stun/shaken. It took a total of 3 full turns before it was dead.


with such good results the first turn, I'm surprised it took so long to finish them off. I have to assume they had haywires because they did damage, but I need to question if you realize the rules on assaulting walkers. Normally you need 6s to hit with grenades, but after an immobilize or a stun, you hit on normal weaponskill. It's an important tidbit that can often finish those dreads in the bottom of the turn. Granted, if you roll bad, like I often do then you could take 3 full turns to kill them. Rolling Eyes

But I wanted to ensure that it's not a case of cheating yourself because lack of a knowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 24 2011, 14:20

First 2 turns are pretty crutial for us to slow GK down. 2 of my friends play GK so I'm getting my fair share of experience at the moment but we haven't played any bigger than 1250 so I'm usually up against 1 Dread and 2 Rhino's only, my 2 Rav's, Basterborn and 2 Raider DL's are getting some juicy tagets at range.

Also if a D.Knight is fielded, its eating poison for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I haven't had huge success with Wyches in th 5 or 6 games we've played against these guys, but thats something I'm working on for the upcoming games.

Basically, for me and my play style, high volume shooting seems to work well against the GK builds that I've played. Yes they have Psycannons, Storm Bolters which turn our guys to mush in a flash, but our cannons and lances outrange theirs....we go first, we have a good chance

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 24 2011, 14:36

@xzandrate wrote:
@Padea wrote:

He was close with two Rifledreads, so i moved 12 inch disembarked with the wyches I managed to get in to combat first turn with the Dread. Tough it got like Immobilized, armament destroyed and other stun/shaken. It took a total of 3 full turns before it was dead.


with such good results the first turn, I'm surprised it took so long to finish them off. I have to assume they had haywires because they did damage, but I need to question if you realize the rules on assaulting walkers. Normally you need 6s to hit with grenades, but after an immobilize or a stun, you hit on normal weaponskill. It's an important tidbit that can often finish those dreads in the bottom of the turn. Granted, if you roll bad, like I often do then you could take 3 full turns to kill them. Rolling Eyes

But I wanted to ensure that it's not a case of cheating yourself because lack of a knowledge.

3 turns locked in combat is 3 turns he's not shooting us out of the sky.

I think an important factor for OP to concider during games is that we do extremely well when we overwell a unit. With GK, they have very few units on the table. Yes, they have Venerable Dreads and stuff like (is it) Fortitude. Going up against this, we've really got to get a lot of those big dice results against them. If you've got Wyches charging a Dread first turn - nice - coz thats what they do, the rest of the army should be in a position to absolutely decimate another unit, wherether it be a single Dread, a Razor w/ troops or a Deep striking unit.

Put yourself in a position where you can unload as much as you can and to also minimise the return fire/attack from GK. If you tarpit 1 Dread and destroy another - depending on th army build, there goes his range....
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeThu Aug 25 2011, 04:04

The wyches could have been on to another combat way before that. Possibly locking down another dread, or equally bothersome unit.

I'm not doubting that you can get caught up for 3 turns, but the way grenades work against walkers is one of those little known things, most know the 6s, but no the rest. I want to ensure that it is understood so you aren't being cheated unintentionally.
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 06:12

Someone's showing up to the upcoming tourney with a paladin force. Any thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 06:50

You deal with them the same way you deal with Termies - make them roll lots of saves and eventually they die.

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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 13:01

Or Blasters, AP2 and cause instant death on T4 so no FNP for them!
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PostSubject: Re: Facing GK probably next week!   Facing GK probably next week! I_icon_minitimeFri Aug 26 2011, 13:04

That's what I figured. That's why I decided to take a unit of shootyborn to go with Sliscus. Its not a deathstar unit but x2 carbines, x2 splinter cannons, and the x2 splinter cannons from the venom is a lot of 3+ (and 4+) wounds.

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