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 Wyches : still useful ?

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:00

Sorry to repeat points across boards, but aren't wyches 1 of 2 or 3 units (beasts?) that can assault into cover without penalty now?
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:15

@Roc wrote:
Sorry to repeat points across boards, but aren't wyches 1 of 2 or 3 units (beasts?) that can assault into cover without penalty now?

The only one. You could charge first then let the Incubi join combat or something.
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:22

Right. Move through cover doesn't alter the I penalty.

Well then.There's one use.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:23

@Roc wrote:
Sorry to repeat points across boards, but aren't wyches 1 of 2 or 3 units (beasts?) that can assault into cover without penalty now?

That doesn't help if they get slaughtered anyway, whether assaulting into cover or out in the open. Striking first only matters if you kill enough people that they don't strike back. Otherwise you charge, you lose a few to Overwatch, you hit first, but nothing happens (so you might as well have not bothered), and you're back in the same spot as if you had not had plasma grenades in the first place!

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:38

Helps the next unit is all. Small lining, but one nonetheless.
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Flint13
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 17:59

@Thor665 wrote:
Wyches can handle being hit - as long as they get the 4++ roll.

Even as recently as last codex in 7th I was still running wyches with assault aspirations, I'd buy a power lance and HWGs and slap them into a tank and then lob what was left at a nearby squad.

The thing is, they have had (continually) their value chipped away at. Drugs are weaker, their weapon options are weaker or more expensive, wych weapons are pretty 'bleh' on and on.

Quite frankly, it wouldn't even take too much to make them 'not suck' again - even if they simply made the dodge save count versus overwatch and vehicle explosions and kept everything else the same I think people would keep using, because then they could get into the battle and do their tarpit work.

They're just one of the prime examples of the type of assault unit that really suffered in the pro-shooting 6-7th edition shifts, and they have no answer to the problems they face.

Apologies for the conflict in terms Mr. Thor. The way I was thinking of it, if they are passing that 4++ they aren't really getting hit.

Even then, they aren't that difficult to cause unsaved wounds on.

Which is part of the reason I don't think they even make good tarpit units (which is what most folks seems to be attempting to find a tertiary use for them as) as a good tarpit unit has to last for quite some time through either 1.) Being hard to kill (either tough/armored/hard to hit) 2.) Being super numerous or 3.) Being 100% stuck into a combat through fearless.

Wychs aren't any of those, except maybe fearless near the end of the game. Problem is, they aren't really numerous or resilient enough to be a great tarpit then, as it isn't super difficult to mow through all of them.

But on the other hand, I will admit, I have had just a few wychs do hilarious things. Holding up Mephiston for 6 consecutive combat rounds, for example.

Unfortunately, that's the fun exception.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 18:00

Not to beat a dead wych, but I became very familiar with the gals over last year as I ran a complete cult themed army in escalation... to some success. By that I mean when I play competitively and bring what I think are the best models I win about 80-85% of the time. With my cult list I won about 65%-70% of the time. Maybe I just suck but I found it hard to win with. The problem is back then you had a few tools to make them work.

Hydra gauntlets - To some degree I caught flak for taking them on the forum, but a good roll can make up for a couple of dead wyches because you generally will lose one in overwatch.

Phantasm Grenade launcher - Charging out in the open it offers you a save from overwatch, charging from cover it offers you a GREAT save.

Venom Blade - With this on your hekatrix you can actually hurt things, which is something the normal wyches could not do well.

The new codex has taken all of these things away and left the points the same. They still wouldn't have been the competitive choice, but you probably could have still won games using them. As it is, they provide nothing. I had one wych with a hydra gauntlet and her hekatrix with a venom blade take out squads of Necrons by themselves. It was doable. Keep your shred and power sword. Pffft.

And maybe I'm just tactically a fool, but in current 40k I don't understand the desire to multi-assault. Let me commit two units to one unit, while probably getting lit up by my opponents barrage of bullets.

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 18:04

Also rather have wyches in against banshees than my incubi.

Honestly, probably take them just because I get bored of 6 warrior squads.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 18:10

Yeah... I'm not a huge fan of using them as cannon fodder, firstly because come on; secondly because they are 10 points a pop, and for the same points you could just get something better; thirdly, because I don't like plans that involve too many moving pieces working together -- the more things that need to go right, the more likely something is to go wrong; and fourthly, because sending in the female squad to be cannon fodder involves Unfortunate Implications that are, well, unfortunate.

I dunno... maybe between Deep Striking, new drugs, new pain power, and so on, they might still work out? I do have the sneaky suspicion though, that someone in GW went, 'We can't possibly have space meringues beaten by girls!' and decided to make sure that it was so.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 18:32

@Barking Agatha wrote:

I do have the sneaky suspicion though, that someone in GW went, 'We can't possibly have space meringues beaten by girls!' and decided to make sure that it was so.

This could very well be a thing. If my opponents face is any indication, after his big burly, armored, marines get their asses handed to them by strippers with shanks.

Edit: I always like to think of my wyches as part-time strippers that also do hair. Is that weird?

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 18:39

@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Edit: I always like to think of my wyches as part-time strippers that also do hair. Is that weird?

I'm the wrong person to ask. Smile

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 19:30

I use the old models. Most of my Wyches are male. They are resplendent in their battle thongs.

Anyway, it seems to me that Kabalites get diminishing returns from Power From Pain compared to Wyches. Neither unit is likely to get an armor save when being shot at (though Kabalites are likely to be in cover), but Feel No Pain Wyches in an assault will be extremely tenacious (especially if there's a Chronos nearby).

Kabalites don't particularly want to charge, Furious or otherwise. Wyches at +1 S are compensating for one of their major weaknesses (being weak).

Everybody likes Fearless, but if the game and the Wyches last long enough, they get Rage, which, again, would put Kabalites somewhat outside of their comfort zone.

I'm theoryhammering here - I haven't gotten to play a game with the new codex yet.

But tools to manipulate all of these advantages also seem readily available. Animus Vitae will hit on a 2+ and pulp a Marine on a 4+, and you can fire it off while charging in, even if you only get the one chance. A Haemonculus will benefit a unit at the cost of Fleet.

If you webway in a Raider (for the added threat range) with Wyches and a Haemonculus out of LOS on turn 2 for a turn 3 assault, Wyches will have Furious Charge. If they come in on turn 3 for a turn 4 assault, and the Animus Vitae works, they will have Furious Charge and Rage.

This doesn't seem bad to me. Am I overlooking something? Am I underestimating the casualties they'll take from Overwatch?

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 20:22

@Calyptra wrote:

If you webway in a Raider (for the added threat range) with Wyches and a Haemonculus out of LOS on turn 2 for a turn 3 assault, Wyches will have Furious Charge. If they come in on turn 3 for a turn 4 assault, and the Animus Vitae works, they will have Furious Charge and Rage.

This doesn't seem bad to me. Am I overlooking something? Am I underestimating the casualties they'll take from Overwatch?

With a Cronos nearby and on a turn with Feel No Pain, Overwatch wouldn't be so bad.

But look at it this way: On turn 4, with a Cronos nearby, 10 Wyches will have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain (4+), but...

... 5 Incubi will also have the same things. 6 Reaver Jetbikes will also have the same things *and* the same benefit from Combat Drugs, whatever it is.

Can you think of a good reason to spend the points on 10 Wyches instead of 6 Reavers?

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 20:24

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Calyptra wrote:

If you webway in a Raider (for the added threat range) with Wyches and a Haemonculus out of LOS on turn 2 for a turn 3 assault, Wyches will have Furious Charge. If they come in on turn 3 for a turn 4 assault, and the Animus Vitae works, they will have Furious Charge and Rage.

This doesn't seem bad to me. Am I overlooking something? Am I underestimating the casualties they'll take from Overwatch?

With a Cronos nearby and on a turn with Feel No Pain, Overwatch wouldn't be so bad.

But look at it this way: On turn 4, with a Cronos nearby, 10 Wyches will have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain (4+), but...

... 5 Incubi will also have the same things. 6 Reaver Jetbikes will also have the same things *and* the same benefit from Combat Drugs, whatever it is.

Can you think of a good reason to spend the points on 10 Wyches instead of 6 Reavers?

Boobs.

Edit: Okay so as not to be a complete cad, to be fair if you try and get the buff from the cronos on reavers you're going to decrease their effectiveness because they have to slow down to the cronos' pace. Incubi are more expensive and lack grenades.

Still, I only view it as a 125 point tax to make wyches marginally better.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 20:55

As a note to the people mentioning tarpitting - Wyches really haven't been good tarpits since the OG dex. Back then they were great at it. In 5th they were meiocre at it, and they have only gotten worse. People bringing that up I think are just falling victim to the old style wyches.

Back in the day Wyches functionally would have had;
4++ save (they still have this)
No Overwatch. (gone)
AP2 weapon that cannot be singled out (gone)
-1 attack to every model in enemy unit. (gone)
WS4 or lower hitting on 5+ instead of 4+ (gone)

Yes, they *used* to be tarpit.
They have not been tarpit for some time.

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Flint13
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 21:01

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Expletive Deleted wrote:

Edit: I always like to think of my wyches as part-time strippers that also do hair. Is that weird?

I'm the wrong person to ask. Smile

Not at all. I think the models are just the right side of skanky to pull it off.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 22:04

I have used Blood Vestals from Raging Heroes for my wyches. They turn the evil stripper factor up to 11! What a Face  GWs 40K wyches have always looked like hermaphrodites to me.

Back on topic I can't see a use for them on the table which is a real shame and just incompetence and laziness on GWs part.

I'll still use mine to proxy where I can.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 22:11

I disagree that they look skanky at all. In a hobby in which female miniatures are almost always sexified, Wyches are a) not sexually posed, b) rationally proportioned, and c) dressed like fighters. Credit where it's due to GW, they look like female warriors, not girls putting on a show!

EDIT:

@Painjunky wrote:
I have used Blood Vestals from Raging Heroes for my wyches. They turn the evil stripper factor up to 11! What a Face GWs 40K wyches have always looked like hermaphrodites to me.

Case in point...

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 23:49

@Thor665 wrote:
Back in the day Wyches functionally would have had;
4++ save (they still have this)
No Overwatch. (gone)
AP2 weapon that cannot be singled out (gone)
-1 attack to every model in enemy unit. (gone)
WS4 or lower hitting on 5+ instead of 4+ (gone)
How I long for this time. sunny
But really, even back then they were a little over the top.
You could join them with a drugged, Animus Vitae beatstick Archon.
It used to be a walk over when you could float from CC to CC.

All is new now and I still believe in Wyches. They are my favourite fluff unit and do profit best from PfP as OS troops.
I don't see them as the heavy lifters in killing power but in scoring objective power.
I would pair them with Reavers, as they can take the Overwatch, jink and run on opponents turn.
Together with some Splinter support fire, this might prove enough to bring your opponents down.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 03:15

A quick reference for wyche weapons, just in case anyone wants to use them heavily, this is only in terms of compared to each other, so I am not taking the ap into account as its all the same for each weapons. The percent is the increased chance you will successfully hit/wound something:

Net/Impaler: 36.11% (lots of fractions that divide themselves, this is true regardless of who you are fighting)

Razorflails: Opponent with less WS: 33.33%
Opponent with same WS: 50%
Opponent with 2x+1 WS: 66.67%

Hydra Guantlets: 2 less T then wyche S: 16.67%
1 less T then wyche S: 33.33%
Same T as wyche S: 50%
Wyche S one better: 66.67%
Wyche S two better: 83.33%

So don't take impalers, they are not very good, my guess is the gauntlet will give you the best bonuses against most enemies due to it being triky to get increased S on wyches.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 04:24

I'll play Wyches regardless, so I am looking for a way to maximize what they do have.

A squad of ten with three gauntlets seems like or could finish off a few weak squads and really put the hurt on guard, rest, light eldar... If they survive. Having a squad that status in a raider to claim objectives and then assault mid to late game seems like it could be beneficial. There is no benefit to getting into combat early and often anymore, so maybe waiting to assault is the way to go?
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 04:48

There are two ways to run Wyches.

The First is a delivery vector for the Succubus.

So Succubus w/ Glaive and Armor of Misery or just the Glaive, and 9 ladies, including a hekatrix with an agonizer. Hydra Gauntlet but not necessary. Buy Haywires for the Succubus + Hekatrix for emergency AT situations. A Raider w/ Aethersails is a must.

The second is a stand alone unit.

10, 3x Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix w/ Agonizer. Ignore Haywire unless you really need it or have the spare points to burn. Raider is a must once again.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 10:07

A Hekatrix with an agonizer is a lot of points. I really want to bring her, because I painted her up all nice. Can you elaborate on why she's worth it?

Statistically, she'll kill a Marine each turn in combat. She'll need to kill three to almost earn back her points, which seems unlikely. I'm aware that value is more complicated at that, but it still seems like a steep point cost for what she does.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 10:45

@Calyptra wrote:
A Hekatrix with an agonizer is a lot of points. I really want to bring her, because I painted her up all nice. Can you elaborate on why she's worth it?

Statistically, she'll kill a Marine each turn in combat. She'll need to kill three to almost earn back her points, which seems unlikely. I'm aware that value is more complicated at that, but it still seems like a steep point cost for what she does.

But killing even one, or two marines in combat will reduce the amount of incoming attacks towards your wyches.

And a Hekatrix can use her challenge abilities. For scoring Hunter of Glory TO and moving the Sergeant to the back of the squad if they refuse.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 14:26

One thing to remember is that wyches are not super at killing marines, if you want to do that you should be looking at incubi, but in terms of point effectiveness increase to wyches vs. marines situation a Hekatrix with Agonizer, gets +1 A (+50% when not charging), wounds better if str 3 (+50%), and ignores their armor (+200%). So what you are doing is getting a 575% increase in offensive power (remember these are multiplicative) for a 350% increase in price. So in terms of offensive power this is a much more point effective means of dealing with marines then say adding more wyches to the fight.
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