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 Wyches : still useful ?

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Archon2589
Hellion
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PostSubject: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 12:33

So, since now only the Syren and the Hekatrix can take HW grenades, are wyches still usable ? One of my friends suggested I use mines as Lhaeman proxies instead...
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 12:38

yes they are usable - just not as effective or points efficient as other choices...

I intend to extend my DE collection and do a cult list just to try and break the mould!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 12:44

Maybe we'll have to wait for a wych cult supplement to see them used at the maximum efficiency !
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@miral
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 16:30

I predict that the wych supplement will have relics as for example a hellion board that provides grenades for a squad and a warlord trait that gives a unit shrouded etc. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 16:52

I suppose the answer is 'define useable'.

But if useable = competitive? The answer would be 'no'.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 17:07

I'm betting on a re-roll on the combat drugs list for Wych Cult supplement.
Some kind of Cauldron of Blood to boost the Wych Cult, that I would find swell.

For me the wyches in 5th edition were not the direction I wanted them to go. I never understood what vehicles can do in an Arena? I long for the special rules from 3rd edition, sure those weren't survivable out CC at all.

For the use I like wyches most: "tarpitting", they did get some minor boost: Combat Drugs became a bit more useful with T bonus in, Ld in. These help a lot in not breaking in CC.

Power from Pain also improved in my opinion. And not a little bit, all units can wait until turn 3 to move into Assault for an automatic FnP.

Wych weapons also did improve a little. Cost is halved, which was needed. I for one am going to try out the Hydra Gauntlets. On average they add # wounds about the same number half a wych would do. Mainly you gain RR's on To Wound roll, which is the most difficult roll for wyches. Other Weapons are quite meh. Impaler & Shardnet is ok but pales in comparison with the former iteration.

I can't wait to see what the Wych Cult Supplement looks like, I really hope we get some special weapons or signature special rules.

In my opinion in this codex most special rules are eliminated to be traded for USR or ID.

I for one am going to use a wych squad as retinue for a Succubus with Archite Draich and The Parasite Kiss. It is quite strange that the Succi get the Demi-claive copy and not an Archon.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 17:31

Quote :
For the use I like wyches most: "tarpitting", they did get some minor boost: Combat Drugs became a bit more useful with T bonus in, Ld in.
Tarpitting requires some damage dealt, to not fail morale. Sadly now - we dont have that option.

In 5th edition wyches held because of Agoniser ignoring all armor and 4+ FnP. In 6th edition wyches helf because Heka at least have venom blade and haywires eat vehicles.

In 7th edition there are no tools to survive combat, not deal with monsters or vehicles. Very sad panda. Im still gonna run them, cause i have like 20 and Succubi, but i dont expect them to fair any good.

I really dont want to spend 20 pts on agoniser, but if i have to run them i need to take it to deal damage in combat. Will not have Wych Weapon, will take Succubi with them. Also i will try webway and take 15 of them, i have good terrain, probably will be able to hide them.

I still dont expect much from them, friend i will be playing with have DoA Blood Angles list with lots of assault marines, sanguinary priests, flamers etc...not very bright for Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 17:31

So I've noticed folks are talking like a Wych Cult supplement is pretty much guaranteed. This third week is supposed to be the last release, correct? So I'm not feeling it.

I think wyches are still very "usable," they just require the same amount of finesse they required before, just a little differently applied ^_^
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 17:34

Quote :

So I've noticed folks are talking like a Wych Cult supplement is pretty much guaranteed.
Yeah sure, in 4-5 years we will get them.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 19:29

@Flint13 wrote:
I think wyches are still very "usable," they just require the same amount of finesse they required before, just a little differently applied ^_^
Eh.

I'll say they're better than Mandrakes, I'll give you that Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 22:27

@Thor665 wrote:
@Flint13 wrote:
I think wyches are still very "usable," they just require the same amount of finesse they required before, just a little differently applied ^_^
Eh.

I'll say they're better than Mandrakes, I'll give you that Laughing
Than Mandrakes WERE Wink Now they're much better than wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 23:21

I played a squad in a Raider today. Rolled +1 attack on the drugs table, put my archon in the unit, put the unit in reserves. When they assaulted, they had FNP 5+ and a shadowfielded archon to eat overwatch. They were in scoring distance of a crucial objective as well. They were pretty decent.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 00:31

@Finn wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
@Flint13 wrote:
I think wyches are still very "usable," they just require the same amount of finesse they required before, just a little differently applied ^_^
Eh.

I'll say they're better than Mandrakes, I'll give you that Laughing
Than Mandrakes WERE Wink Now they're much better than wyches.
They're both pretty terrible, but if I was obligated to field one I'd take the Wyches over the Mandrakes - at least I can toss in and get a Dedicated Transport for my efforts.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:41

Wychs are still good, we get 3 specialist weapons per 10 although those got changed. GW hated the fact that their CC goddess troops were reduced to literally cannon fodder. I can understand this as I didn't like using them as cannon fodder either. The real strength in a squad of 10 wychs is it's ability to contest OS points. They will rip through all other OS units other than Marines, which they will tarpit the crap out of the later. I don't have an issue utilizing them till turn 3 either. Let the shooting happen and have your wychs mop up which is what they are intended for now.

Some ideas:

1: great for tar pitting still.

2: Throw them in a raider with Shock Prow and laugh as your raider zooms across the table rams a rhino and spills the contents. Wych then assault. I will bet on bolters not being able to take down a raider with 3+jink. Raiders are fun CC delivery, and with shock prows only certain play styles will use them.... Awesome ones. Obviously it is not auto win but a skilled DE general can utilize it.

3. Keep them in reserves and DS them where you need them around the table in cover. IE next to contested places objectives.

Their role has changed but it does not mean that they are not worth taking, I will still be using wychs. I was used to running them bare bones in transports for troop denial. More bolters tied up into Useless combat is good for us. Grab a sweet combat drugs roll? NOICE!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:49

@Its_Rumble wrote:
The real strength in a squad of 10 wychs is it's ability to contest OS points. They will rip through all other OS units other than Marines, which they will tarpit the crap out of the later.
Well, ignoring that about 50% of ObSec Troops *are* Marines - I'm still not sure this is legit.
Depending on squad size, Guardsmen are pretty capable of kicking Wyches' butts. Orks also. Sisters and Crons are certainly competitive, Sisters with flamers probably win, Crons probably just tarpit. Nids it depends on which type of Troop. Daemons it depends on which type of Troop. Eldar it depends, but probably do okay/ Tau it sort of depends what they can swing for Overwatch, so I'll agree Wyches would stomp them as long as they manage the overwatch.

Don't get me wrong, they're not useless, but in the grand scheme of assault units in the game they're bottom half, so it's not like they mulch up Troop selections either. Against some they'll do fine, and others it will be a grind,a nd versus yet others they'll probably not make it.

I might even agree it's their best use, despite all that, though I note that I don't think they have many viable uses anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:55

I understand this but I would never throw wychs at fresh units like that. The new datacards we got gives us points for killing units with multiple other units. With the amount of venoms and warriors that I have AI is easy for me. But I don't have to dedicate those units to shooting at them 100% of the time.

EX)

Turn X:
Shoot at a unit do wounds and reduce its size
Assault with wychs and tie them up untill your next turn

Turn X+1: Shoot at a unit and reduce its size
Assault with wychs who now have survived another turn without taking many casualties.

Obviously the idea is to play these smart, you should effectively be able to keep Wychs safe in CC against battle that you know you are going to win. They get stronger and stronger as time progresses and then that super duper shiny unit that has been hard to kill all game doesn't look so bad when you have most of your wychs at turn 5 bearing down on 1 unit. This will take finesse but I have the faith in my fellow Archons/Succubus/Haemonculi to understand that it can, and will, happen often. Just like all of our army pick and choose the unfair fights.



And thor, what you say is very true they aren't the best but I am trying to reassure people that they can still be used. My goal with the wychs is to have them for t5. Late game is where they are going to mop up when we need it if we can keep them safe.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 04:18

I also would like to remind that you can still throw a HWG in the shooting phase and use one in assault, just an extra option, your wych squads can still finish off a vehicle.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 05:13

I will agree that I could purchase Wyches to serve as semi-effective cleanup squads in the wake of squads that are actually doing heavy lifting.

I'm not thinking that's much of an endorsement, I'll admit. Especially at their cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 06:03

@Thor665 wrote:
I will agree that I could purchase Wyches to serve as semi-effective cleanup squads in the wake of squads that are actually doing heavy lifting.

I'm not thinking that's much of an endorsement, I'll admit. Especially at their cost.

That, and if you are going to need squads that actually do the heavy lifting, why not spend the points on more of those, instead of the wyches? It isn't as if they're cheaper...

Then again, being Troops, they get that first turn 5+ cover save, which isn't much, I'll grant you, but it's something? And there's the fabled Wych Cult supplement, that will surely make them rule!

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 06:19

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Then again, being Troops, they get that first turn 5+ cover save, which isn't much
That gives up ObSec though, so it is a debate which you wish to go for.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 08:19

No need to sugarcoat it wyches are awful. I own more wyches than warriors. I like them better. However, they cost the same, and have zero redeeming qualities outside of their physical models. I don't even have faith in a supplement, because they would have to totally rework the inherent rules governing wyches to make them useful. It's like Barking Agatha alluded to. I'd rather just kill the enemy than hold them up for a few turns.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 13:06

@Thor665 wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
Then again, being Troops, they get that first turn 5+ cover save, which isn't much
That gives up ObSec though, so it is a debate which you wish to go for.

ObjSec every time for me. If you're deploying a DE Troop squad somewhere that isn't inside a vehicle or in cover in the first turn then you're almost certainly doing something wrong anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 15:37

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No need to sugarcoat it wyches are awful. I own more wyches than warriors. I like them better. However, they cost the same, and have zero redeeming qualities outside of their physical models. I don't even have faith in a supplement, because they would have to totally rework the inherent rules governing wyches to make them useful. It's like Barking Agatha alluded to. I'd rather just kill the enemy than hold them up for a few turns.

This is the idea I'm getting the longer I look at their codex entry and try to decide what to do with my 30 painted minis. I very much doubt we're going to get a Wych themed supplement no matter how many folks seem to think its a given.

Looking back, they weren't effective at close combat. They were effective at anti-vehicle work whether haywire grenades were a fluke or not. The struggle wyches face now is that they are more expensive than warriors with no additional utility. They get 3 STr 3 attacks on a charge into a combat that they have to get to, through an over watch reaction, and survive the return attacks to see any results from.

I think this is the biggest problem the loss of haywire causes. Wyches operate best when they aren't hit. Vehicles typically don't hit back (excepting dreads of course), which made them the best target. Now the only realistic way wyches can cause damage is being forced into a situation that requires the possibility of being hit, and thus sacrificing their points if you're looking at the math side of it. Warriors can cause damage with out necessarily exposing themselves to damage, with a better AP and an adaptable strength for any toughness.

I hate it, but as much as I love my Wych minis, it seems they've gone from a finesse unit to being an actual detriment to the rest of the army.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 16:11

Wyches can handle being hit - as long as they get the 4++ roll.

Even as recently as last codex in 7th I was still running wyches with assault aspirations, I'd buy a power lance and HWGs and slap them into a tank and then lob what was left at a nearby squad.

The thing is, they have had (continually) their value chipped away at. Drugs are weaker, their weapon options are weaker or more expensive, wych weapons are pretty 'bleh' on and on.

Quite frankly, it wouldn't even take too much to make them 'not suck' again - even if they simply made the dodge save count versus overwatch and vehicle explosions and kept everything else the same I think people would keep using, because then they could get into the battle and do their tarpit work.

They're just one of the prime examples of the type of assault unit that really suffered in the pro-shooting 6-7th edition shifts, and they have no answer to the problems they face.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches : still useful ?   Wyches : still useful ? I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 16:56

My idea right now is to use Wyches in conjunction with the Haemonculus-Talos-Chronos formation and the Animus Vitae.
I'm guessing Animus Vitae has a bit less than 50% chance of working.
The Coven formation will let you webway the Chronos to where you need it, so when your Wyches show up, they'll have 4+ Feel No Pain, and possibly Furious Charge.

Theoretically.

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