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 Hellions: am I missing something?

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 01:26

@PainReaver wrote:
@Crazy_Irish wrote:
One thing to consider ist, that the Hellglaive has a DS of 5, so against mass troops they are actually good, if not netter in combat. Sure, rending on your HOW attacks is really good against MEQ but against GEQ i think that Hellions could outshine reavers....

And for four more points, you can go get an Incubi. Who do the same thing, with FC. And cuts through Termies (sometimes).

And walk around the battlefield. Until you buy them a venom(with an add SC) so you are up an additional 12P a model ;-)
But as i said, they are good against mass light troops(GEQ). Incubi are for TEQ and MEQ. I finde the new DE to be very specialised. Each has their own job.

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Garacesh
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 18:10

Is it just me or Phantasm Grenades (and Torment Grenades, too, since they're the same thing, just different ranges) abso-bloody-lutely useless now? Soulfright seems really nice, admittedly, but without any ways to reduce leadership like Fear (at least not on the models that take Phantasm/Torment) Strength 1 is just.. Just terrible. With no poison, most of the time you're looking at 6+ to wound plus armour saves..

I always preferred the look of Hellions to Reavers (even if they are an ass to paint) but it's really looking like for a miniscule point difference, Reavers are looking to be better, although I've still yet to get to grips with the Hammer of Wrath rules (the old Bladevanes were better, I think..)

Hit and Run is still nice, especially since they're all equipped with 18", Assault 2, Poison 4+, but with the nerfs to the Stunclaw it really removes one of the core uses for Hellions - shoot, dart into combat, run off with someone (so you don't get shot next turn as you're still in combat), kill that guy, shoot whoever is left, charge back in, wipe out.. But with Reavers having H&R, they can do it too
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Khalyxidae hybristoma
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 19:30

Sigh.. this is all very hard to hear, as aesthetically and personal fluff-wise, hellions are one of my favorite units. So this is all going to be mostly wishful thinking - I still think that their best application would be as troops. And good god i wish they had jink. It makes so much sense.
Anyway:

I'd tend to agree with those before, saying that their main strong point is GEQ and general hordes of things, as well as wearing down MCs - while reavers are without question a superior quality and more adaptable unit (and another personal favorite), a cloud of hellions is still a really good way to move a high volume of splinter shots and .....sorta decent CC attacks around the field very quickly, being able to leapfrog across the board as jumpers with hit 'n run, and generally weakening things for mop up and harassing most troop choices. And, well.. I imagine they won't really be a high priority target...

We kind of already have some units that do this but not at the same points cost or maneuverability. And dammit, I only just finished converting my Baron!

I ah.. honestly don't know what to think about the stunclaw. I guess the idea was that it could still remove potentially problematic ICs from the type of squads it'd be attacking anyway, but honestly, I'd rather just be able to throw a warlock or coteaz out of unit coherency to flex with conferred bonuses. We've got plenty of other stuff that can kill it once it's in the open.
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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:34

The only way I could see Hellions become useful is if they had... haywire grenades heheh
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clever handle
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 22:44

so question to the community.  Do you consider the bases as part of the model for determining whether or not you're suitably obscured to earn a cover save?  Since Hellions typically stand about 1-1.5" above the tabletop I find it almost impossible to ever have them in an obscured state thus meaning they're unable to claim cover saves due to intervening models / terrain a lot of the time.

I like my hellions and am loath to see them go.  I think that they have the ability to be better than kabilites in an anti-infantry role (both heavy & light infantry).  Due to having twice the damage output potential outside of 12", and the same *or greater (if you're prepared to charge...) inside of 12", and the same relative survivability (depending on your opinion on the topic raised in my first paragraph...) Depending on your combat drug result they can become very effective in combat, making up for their lost attack, or gaining an additional point of strength or even toughness so those turn 5 mop-up charges become even easier....
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 00:37

On cover: rules are quite clear: 25% of the body of the model needs to be obscured.

So yeah, Hellions really got the short end of the stick in 7th.
Without being ably to become troops, I see no room in Fast FoC for them, sadly. I was willing to finally put them on the table but GW seems to have a hard time to make them interesting enough to field.

Really, take a way the second attack for a Hellglaive? What where they thinking?

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't really see the forte of the Hellions.
You can not use their 12" move to get a S3 HoW attack! Great! You'll kill about 1 Marine per 9 Hellions with that, which isn't too shabby (if you would hit at I after this).
You can fire 2 poison shots to support the assault. Which sounds nice but I fiend myself quite a lot in the situation that I don't want to kill the front models of my charge target. Otherwise my needed charge range goes up.
They also lack assault grenades...
I really wish that Jump troops and Jetbikes just weren't affected by terrain at all (apart from dangerous). It would make a lot more sense.
"I can fly through the sky! But wait, I'll just climb over this pile of debris right before I try to hit you in the face"... Logic, sheer GW logic. Evil or Very Mad
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 00:50

Yeah, they are pretty poor in assault now, but do have some potential as shooting harassment troops. They can skit away to keep at ~18", and take their two shots per model. If you feel like tailoring and are expecting mediocre Ld you could even throw in the phantasm for the lulz.

Maybe once they have furious charge up in turn 4 they can smack a transport or something.

Even still I'm not convinced that they are worth the slot or the points, when stacked up against, say, a venom. I want them to be, but sadly wanting doesn't make it so Sad.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 01:05

I've said it before, I'll note it again - if you want them as a shooting harassment force.
You're probably better off buying 1-12 Beastmasters instead of Hellions at a solid point savings.

Same shooting template, and they get move through cover so you can keep them in cover with no risk on movement speed or dangerous terrain checks, and they get the pods.

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 01:13

That's a very good point Thor, but still it's gonna be hard to claim cover saves if you opponent plays by RAW. Or you need to cut the stand in half or something like that.

It's strange that Hellions are only jump troops. As in my mind they never touch down and run around. They always hover. The should have gotten Jetbike rules with a speed limit.
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Khalyxidae hybristoma
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 05:44

..so i just noticed that Hellions are listed as having a close combat weapon AND a hellglaive, even though hellglaives are two-handed and they can't get the extra bonus from that.
Anyone know what the deal is there?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 06:05

@El_Jairo - depends on the terrain at your local play area, I suppose. I get cover saves with models mounted on flight stands all the time. Play with less small rolling hills and low walls, I suppose Laughing

@Khaly - <insert sarcastic comment about GW's proofreading skills here>?


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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 08:57

Yeah, if you can't get cover with your Hellions that's more down to your group's terrain than the models.

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 07:50

The only use I can see for them is as a deepstriking phantasm grenade launcher delivery system. Even then a raider does it better and cheaper.
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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 08:14

This really sucks, I own 50 hellions and 27 bikes. Well I know the bikes will get their use. Maybe the hellions will get used but not like before.

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Mahakala
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 15:53

What about attaching a WWP HQ to a hellion squad and precision DSing them somewhere convenient enough for splinter fire or just to post up...yet protected...then detaching Archon from unit next turn and jumping in a fly by transport timed to perfection while the hellions move shoot and charge something in late game take PfP and Combat Drugs buffs?  OR deep striking late turns without WWP and gaining mobility for objective hopping?  T5, S5 Hellions will be no joke, especially in a squad of twenty.

I have thirty of these guys as well, one squad of fifteen painted like Green Goblins and the other squad with the Baron as the Hobgoblin and fourteen accompanying him and his paint scheme.  I'm play testing this squad just because... come onnnnnn CD roll.

on a slightly separate, yet still related, note...  has anyone else preserved the hook/chain connection from Hellion to Skyboard and completely regret it?  What I mean is that very few of my hellions are glued to their skyboards, and man are they a dainty bunch to deal with.  Kind of an indicative foreshadowing I suppose.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 15:59

Quote :
What I mean is that very few of my hellions are glued to their skyboards
You should have pinned them to Skyboard, they have ideal construction to just break off the board.

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Mahakala
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 17:05

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
What I mean is that very few of my hellions are glued to their skyboards
You should have pinned them to Skyboard, they have ideal construction to just break off the board.

meh.  I think it is more indicative to my undying patience, also serving me well in planning my successful real space raids.

I was dwelling more about late game DSing Skyboarders though.  I hate relying on randomness, but when it comes off it's just sick.  And we play a game that is dictated by dice rolling - I mean isn't it all random?

A full squad of late game, CDed Hellions is putting 40 splinter shots and 61 S6 attacks on something.  Or 40 splinter shots and 81 S5 Attacks on something.  Even the crappy CD situations result in a punch and a decent footprint if needed.  But the points sink for this unit (270 I think?) is equal to two heavy weapon wielding Scourge squads, so save your rebuttals.  My point is for those still with models and a hankering to play them may benefit from late game antics greatly.  

I feel like people are just afraid to change from what they find normal.  I believe it was the Count who said back in the pre-release Rumors post that this is all just a new puzzle to unlock.  That one statement eased my tainted soul and brought me back to the fun part of this hobby.  The cerebral aspect of the hobby.  The anticipation of the unknown.  Adapting on the fly.  Or glide.  Or whatever is they do.  I consider this Hellion bashing a challenge.  I'll let you know.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 12 2014, 17:58

@Mahakala wrote:
I believe it was the Count who said back in the pre-release Rumors post that this is all just a new puzzle to unlock.

That was actually me. Very Happy

However, I see very little reason not to us reavers over hellions. The units are too similar and reavers just bring more in terms of shooting, mobility, survivability and assault.

The only thing that hellions have that reavers can't reproduce is deep strike and phantasm grenade launchers. Is that enough to justify taking them? Personally for me it isn't.

Still I'm sure we will get a formation that makes them a worthwhile choice eventually.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 13 2014, 02:55

@Mushkilla wrote:
The only thing that hellions have that reavers can't reproduce is deep strike and phantasm grenade launchers. Is that enough to justify taking them? Personally for me it isn't.

Even then, Reavers can attach a character that provides both of those things. Hellions don't get to add a character allowing turbo-boost, better hammer of wrath, heat lances, shoot & scoot, extra hand weapon attacks for the so-called assault unit, etc...
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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 09:18

At first i was the same, looking at all the nerfs they were given. Loss of baron, loss of grenades,lost 1 attack. but on closer inspection they could have there uses.

they got fractionally cheaper and with the exception of +1 I, combat drugs will help immensely.
No longer do you have to hope to roll a 6 for a pain token, or pick off an already weakened unit and with artifacts, formation's etc you can have them with FnP by turn 2.

They are also 1 of only 2 units that come standard with a CC weapon that has an AP value.
AP5 doesn't sound like much but against those units of low AS troops this is a big difference.

Their battle field role hasn't changed much, hug cover for a few turns, then pick on someone they can hurt or support another units attack.




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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 09:22

@darthken239 wrote:
At first i was the same, looking at all the nerfs they were given. Loss of baron, loss of grenades,lost 1 attack. but on closer inspection they could have there uses.

they got fractionally cheaper  and with the exception of +1 I, combat drugs will help immensely.
No longer do you have to hope to roll a 6 for a pain token, or pick off an already weakened unit and with artifacts, formation's  etc you can have them with FnP by turn 2.

They are also 1 of only 2 units that come standard with a CC weapon that has an AP value.
AP5 doesn't sound like much but against those units of  low AS troops this is a big difference.

Their battle field role hasn't changed much, hug cover for a few turns, then pick on someone they can hurt or support another units attack.

The issue is that Reavers do everything better.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 14:27

@Mushkilla wrote:
Is there ever a point to take hellions now? When reavers are just better in every way? For only a three point increase.

For the Apocalypse formation, Murder Flock. Now if I could just find a game of apoc to play...
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Mahakala
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 16:00

@Anggul wrote:


The issue is that Reavers do everything better.

Including drawing fire and attention from opponents.  Due to my prior Bladevaning antics, when people see Reavers on the board, they immediately target them.  

Nobody is arguing that Reavers are the better choice... but some of us have an a$$load of them and still want to see them on the battlefield.  Deepstriking them late game with PfP and CD buffs will allow this to happen IMHO. Maybe training the WWP Haemi for a turn helps even more, depending on arrival. I think they will be great Line breakers and Obj smashers when everyone is paying attention farther up board to Reavers, Scourges, Dark Artisan formations and whatnot.

I'm playing a game this weekend and my 6 FA slots are 20 hellions, 2X 9 Reavers, 2 X 5 scourge and 1 RZWJF.  Can I take another RZWJF instead?  Sure.  Can I add a third Reaver Squad or another Scourge squad in lieu?  Doubly sure, and for cheaper too.

But then I won't be able to come back here and write about how stellar the Hobgoblin Squad was for me and then tell all the naysayers to post their naysaying elsewhere. It seems like people would rather bash on their soapbox, than adapt and try something. It is a game after all.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 19:12

@Khalyxidae hybristoma wrote:
..so i just noticed that Hellions are listed as having a close combat weapon AND a hellglaive, even though hellglaives are two-handed and they can't get the extra bonus from that.
Anyone know what the deal is there?

I don't have the codex in front of me, but my offhand guess is that so you can equip a helliarch with an agonizer or power sword, and have it be armed with that, plus a CC weapon for +1A.

Basically, it looks like hellions will be an agonizer delivery system that can get into combat quicker than ground infantry, with better shooting ability (though, unfortunately, lacking the assault grenades for some reason).  Basically, compared to reavers, it's a question of whether you want Str3 HoW attacks and Str4(ap5) standard attacks vs. having Str4 (rending) HoW attacks and Str3 standard attacks (for a few pts more per model). HoW attacks can give diminishing returns with larger sized squads, as you *have* to have models in BtB for them to have HoW attacks, while standard attacks still have the 2" from BtB model threat range.

With the Str 4 standard attacks, they might be able to put a few glances on AV10 if it is convenient to do so - probably to finish off something that has been damaged by other means. (12 Hellions will put 1.33 glances on a moving vehicle on average; 2 glances on average vs. a stationary one)
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions: am I missing something?   Hellions: am I missing something? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 16 2014, 19:33

@Krayd,

its not as simple as that though, since in those extra 3 points you're gaining the ability to move 3X faster, you can also jink for a 3+ coversave in the open, aren't afraid of hitting terrain at all, and can upgrade to add effective anti-tank shooting, rather than the limited anti-infantry potential that hellions have.

The biggest problem is simply that, unless you're wanting to use them in assault (and why?), beastmasters do everything hellions do & better & cheaper. So ... yeah...
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