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 Equiping Scourge

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Finn
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 22:10

@Grub wrote:
Heatlance scourges. I'm gonna prepare for an onslaught here, are not worthwhile suicide units. Even if they do get the perfect deepstrike and do wreck a tank. They don't have the resilience to put up with much.
This. And using HL-Scourges with a WWP+HQ is pure waste of points.

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darthken239
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Oct 07 2014, 08:46

You could always run 1 unit with 4 DL's quite expensive and probably not cost effective, but the option is there. and if used in conjuction with HWB scourges could be problematic for an opponent.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 00:32

I see the value in chipping hull pts away but honestly If I wanna do that Im gonna use ravagers to do it. Suicide melta is a concept I'm both familiar with and fine with. If a shot gets through a jink/IK shield what-have-you I want to know its got a chance to do some damage if not completely destroy the unit.
Stun locking is still a thing and its still very effective but not with haywire. So for me its melta.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 01:15

@Brom wrote:
I see the value in chipping hull pts away but honestly If I wanna do that Im gonna use ravagers to do it. Suicide melta is a concept I'm both familiar with and fine with. If a shot gets through a jink/IK shield what-have-you I want to know its got a chance to do some damage if not completely destroy the unit.
Stun locking is still a thing and its still very effective but not with haywire. So for me its melta.

With a 12" move and 24" shot, you could jump cover to cover and never having to DS them. yes they are Fragile, but having them with 2-3 Ravagers and Reavers make for a lot of threat on the table.

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LSK
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 09:10

In my playgroup, I usually play against : Tau player with 2 "interceptor" Riptides and a Dark Angels player with Mortis Dreadnought with "interceptor" rule if it did not move previous turn.
I am a bit reluctant at deep striking my poor scourges and see them instajibbed when arriving on the table.

I agree with you amishprn86, hiding them behind cover, jumping 12" and shooting HWB 24", seems more reliable in that case (with the additional opportunity to make them useful from turn 1).
Against other armies, I might take the risk of a tactical deep strike.

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MyNameDidntFit
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 09:27

That's the joy of it: you choose at deployment so you can adapt on the fly.

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ulijikaru
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 17:38

Played a 1500 point game with our old foe the AM took four haywire scourges (hayurges? scowires? Scourgewires?) groups of 4 haywire scourges a ravager and 2 venom embarked blasterborn. Can attest that the haywire did a great deal of the heavy lifting but the blasterborn stole the show with a luck pen on a leman russ that exploded it before it had a chance to fire. As always diversity of weapons brings strength and I found the mix of 16 haywire and 14 various lances worked quite well together.  I would agree that Deep striking the scourges is indeed a dangerous very dangerous proposition.

As For those of us that love Mathhammer (and who doesn't) here are some calculations pertinent to the discussion:

Haywire blaster from 24"
66.67% chance to hit 83.33% chance to glance AV 12 is 55.56%
Average Glances from a round of fire from a full 5 man squad: 2.22
66.67% chance to hit 16.67% chance to penetrate AV 12 11.11%
Average Penetrating hits from a round of fire from a full 5 man squad: .44
Chance to explode a non open topped vehicle 0%

Heatlances from 18"
66.67% chance to hit 16.67% chance to glance AV 12: 11.11%
Average Glances from a 5 round of shooting from a full man squad: .44
66.67% chance to hit 0% chance to penetrate AV 12: 0%
Average Penetrating hits from a round of shooting from a full 5 man squad: 0
Chance to explode a non open topped vehicle 0%

Heatlances from 9"
66.67% chance to hit 72.22% chance to glance AV 12: 48.15%
Average Glances or better from a round of shooting from a full 5 man squad: 1.9
66.67% chance to hit 58.34% chance to penetrate AV 12: 38.89%
Average Penetrating hits from a round of shooting from a full 5 man squad: 1.56
Chance to explode a non open topped vehicle 12.97%
Average explosions per round of fire: .51

Darklances from 36"
(since it was mentioned but also because lance backup from raiders and ravagers is still a good idea. Keep in mind scourges so equipped must remain stationary to fire full BS).
66.67% chance to hit 50% chance to glance AV 12: 33.33%
Average Glances or better from a round of shooting from a full 5 man squad: 1.33
66.67% chance to hit 33.33% chance to penetrate AV 12: 22.22%
Average Penetrating hits from a round of shooting from a full 5 man squad: .89
Chance to explode a non open topped vehicle 3.7%
Average explosions per round of fire: .15`

The statistics above are also applicable for 18" blasters and 6" blaster pistols.

Mathhammer on Scatter dice:
33.33% chance of landing exactly where you want to.
Of the remaining 66.67% assuming a long target and placement is 1 inch within 9" sweet spot we can fairly safely assume that 50% of the scatter will put you either parallel or closer to your target.
Again no terrain or other units within 8 inches of your chosen spot  we are looking for scatter distance of under 7 (or 58%) chance of the favorable scatter (33.67%)= 19.44% of still being SAFE and in range of our woefully short ranged heat lances. This when added to the initial 33.3% chance of landing exactly where you want to gives us ~52.77% of landing "On Target."

Assuming the other 47.33% of the possible landing areas are perilous there is then a 7.89% chance of the unit being lost completely and a 15.78% chance of your opponent being able to drop them wherever he or she wants--into difficult terrain (which requires dangerous terrain checks losing you on average of .417 models) or worse: so far away from the action your short ranged melta scourges will be lucky to see any action before turn 4 (5 or 6 if the board is long and you are wisely jumping from cover to cover)

To sum up:
~52.77% chance of landing safely within proper shooting distance of your intended target.
~23.66% of being put into ongoing reserves
~7.89% chance of losing the unit
~15.78% chance of getting dropped out of the fight

I hope this is helpful.
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flakmonkey
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 19:01

That's some nice math-hammer ulijikaru. The deep strike one in particular.
I'll definetly be running a mix, a squad of haywire and squad of heatlance, but most likely add another squad of haywire later on. Haywire for consistency, and heatance for that chsnce of explosion.

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HokutoAndy
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Oct 08 2014, 20:29

It seems they'd be good in conjunction with Reavers to assault nearby threats or just provide cover while moving closer to targets.

I figure you're better off using heatlances on reavers, and if what they hit doesn't explode you can finish it off with haywire glances.
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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 00:53

@HokutoAndy wrote:
It seems they'd be good in conjunction with Reavers to assault nearby threats or just provide cover while moving closer to targets.

I figure you're better off using heatlances on reavers, and if what they hit doesn't explode you can finish it off with haywire glances.
Or charge with Cluster Caltrops, they are d6 S6 Rending after all.

I still prefer HwB over HL on Scourges. Or you have an IC to spare to WWP them where you need them. But that will be most likely right in the middle of things.

On the other hand, they are 'only' 120 points, so if they bring down a Land Raider or something alike, they already made back their investment. The fact that they will attract a lot of shooty punishment, only is a bonus Very Happy

There is of course the psychological effect of DS 4 HL. Your opponent will adapt his deployment and movement appropriately. More than 50% chance on DS on target, that just might be worth gambling.

Meh, I still have to see if my meta justifies it.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 03:42

If I recall, interceptor happens at the end of your shooting phase rather when the unit lands. Or take out the unit with interceptor first, or lock it down with Wyches.
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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 13:02

Bad news bears, Interceptor is at the end of the movement phase wherein everything arrives from reserves.
I had picked up two units of Scourges earlier due to prettiness of the models, and after reading this thread (especially that mathhammer. Kinda sad face that HWB is consistently doing more damage!) I'm considering going from one HWB unit and one Heat Lance unit to 2x HWB.

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Aroban
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 13:44

To break it all down I'd say in terms of destroying a vehicle, HWB are the best option.

If the rest of your army lacks ap2 weaponry, you could trade off a bit of HWB's anti-tank effectiveness for a heatlance, granting better anti-infantrry/MC.

Would you agree? Smile

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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 13:48

Yeah, HWB scourge are great vs vehicles, but that's really the limit of their value. Heat lances and blasters can also be used effectively on Meq/ teq. It depends on your local meta, but a mix is probably the best option in a take all comers list.
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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Oct 09 2014, 18:24

@Trystis wrote:
Yeah, HWB scourge are great vs vehicles, but that's really the limit of their value. Heat lances and blasters can also be used effectively on Meq/ teq. It depends on your local meta, but a mix is probably the best option in a take all comers list.

You can't say no to more ap2/1.
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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 19:18

@MarcoAvrelis: Blast pistols have not changed since last codex, specifically, their range is the same.

You have significantly better than 1/3 chance to deepstrike safely within 9" of a tank if you just Deepstrike scourges normally.

Working on the math hammer for deep striking is very difficult for someone like me who is not naturally mathmatically inclined.

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Laughingcarp
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 02:40

Question for everyone out there.
How do you deploy your HWG Scourges?

I started them on the table today and they got insta-wiped by every gun with more than 36" range in my opponent's army.

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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 04:56

Didn't you try to hide them? They aren't supposed to be out in the open.
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Myrvn
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 05:37

Here is a table for ballistic skill on blast markers. Deep strike is just a BS 0. Probably best to cut and paste into Excel for formatting. Cumulative percentage. Lelith seems pretty boss with a plasma grenade.


BS: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Hit 33% 33% 35% 39% 44% 52% 61% 72% 81% 89%
<=1 33% 35% 39% 44% 52% 61% 72% 81% 89% 94%
<=2 35% 39% 44% 52% 61% 72% 81% 89% 94% 98%
<=3 39% 44% 52% 61% 72% 81% 89% 94% 98% 100%
<=4 44% 52% 61% 72% 81% 89% 94% 98% 100% 100%
<=5 52% 61% 72% 81% 89% 94% 98% 100% 100% 100%
<=6 61% 72% 81% 89% 94% 98% 100% 100% 100% 100%
<=7 72% 81% 89% 94% 98% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
<=8 81% 89% 94% 98% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
>=9 19% 11% 6% 2% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0% 0%



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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 09:54

I prefer Haywire on Scoruges beacuse I don't need a suicide squad; I need a squad who will shoot more times throught the game.
Against wounds we have a lot of things wich works, so I can take Scourges and specialize them in antitank.
And, vs any list who deploy some veichles, if you are the first player, scourges can make an easy first blood point.

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DEfan
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PostSubject: Re: Equiping Scourge   Equiping Scourge - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 10:28

Haywire is gold but it is heart breaking when the ones and twos drop when you roll to hit. It has to be twin-linked to guarantee success. I know there is some anti-eldar sentiment out there, but a Farseer with guide certainly helps.
I think that the way this new dex is written, DE are expected to bait and wait, as each turn improves our resilience. Hide them scourges, hide them I say! When the fools come closer, blast them away.

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