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 New Codex, first impressions

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Panic_Puppet
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PostSubject: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 18:51

I've got the dex, leafed through, and tossed together a list and played a game (beating Necrons 11-2 in a Maelstrom game if anyone cares).

Initial thoughts:
The Realspace Raiders detachment is great. The mandatory Fast Attack slot is easy to fill as we have so many good options, and if for some reason you wouldn't use any from Razorwings, Reavers, Beastpacks, Hellions or Scourges, you can chuck in one of either of our transports. 6 FA slots is amazing for flexibility and speed. As a downside, I can see venomspam becoming a real thing again as you can now take 6 venoms without paying a tax on the troops. We trade objective secured for 6+ cover saves on everything on turn 1, 5+ if it's a troops unit; this also applies to any turn with Night Fighting, meaning it can come back into play later in the game. Essentially, we have guaranteed night-fight on turn 1 as this replicates the effects with a boost. Can be tagged with the 'crons messing with solar pulses for maximum shenanigans.

Warlord Traits:
Ancient Evil - Fear is a bit meh. Labyrinthine Cunning - best trait on the chart by a mile. Soulthirst - meh. Not great on a support HQ if you run one. Hatred Eternal - again, ok but not stellar. Blood Dancer - +1 WS is really situational. On the Archon it's only good against WS7 opposition. Good on a Succubus though, as it means WS4 opposition now hits you on 5s. Towering Arrogance - not amazing. You pick up fearless as the game goes anyway, and most of your stuff is likely to be meched/in reserve, as is the warlord. Overall, one really good one, but mostly ok.

Troops:
Now got just wyches and warriors to play with, and wyches lost a lot and gained little. My pick: 10 warriors with a splinter cannon, in a raider with splinter racks. 165/170 points depending on whether you opt for a disentegrator or a dark lance. Two of these fill up your mandatory troop allowance, and are likely to be my go-to "core" for future lists.

HQ:
I think this is the most interesting area. Each of the three base options (Archon, Succubus, Haemonculus) has different benefits. Haemonculus is based mostly on unit support, advancing the Power From Pain turn for his unit. Succubus is our 'damage dealer' HQ, and the Archon seems to fit a more 'generalist' role. Of note is that they all have access to unique sections of wargear. My opinion, HQs have a wide array of options and unlock tactics if the right character takes the right wargear. Highly list dependent.

The Artefacts:
One per model is a bit of a bummer. I'd like to tag-team the Armour of Misery and Archangel of Pain with a webway portal, but that requires a minimum of 195 points to pull off (2 archons, the 2 artefacts, and a webway portal). Tried the Archangel and it was meh (but then I was against an all-LD10 army). I like the look of the Armour of Misery on a Succubus, as it gives her a passable save outside of combat, Fear is OK, and it means you're likely to make things run if you win. Animus Vitae is nice, but difficult to get in range and you run the risk of missing/failing to wound, so I'd be hesitant to go all-in on making it work. Djin Blade I don't know if it's worth its points, and the Helm of Spite is fantastic against Psykers, might be tempted to take to a tournament if I didn't want any other relic. Parasite's Kiss looks pretty good considering how cheap it is. Armour's my pick for best relic though.

Tactical Objectives:
All really cool, really fluffy. Complete win from my perspective. No Escape is the only meh one, requiring you to destroy a unit that was falling back, had stealth or had shrouded. Trophy Hunter's my favourite as I love things that require interaction, this one forces your opponent to nominate a character of theirs and an objective to try and score.

Power From Pain:
I like the new table. It's a lot less complex trying to remember everything... blanket effect, and haemonculus adds 1 to his unit. Especially since we have mass reserve shenanigans, and the Detachment special rule to cover us for the one turn PfP isn't in effect. As soon as the game hits turn 5 you won't run, meaning that opponents are forced to wipe you to the very last model.

Overall, my gut instinct is that we haven't lost much of our damage dealing potential... Lances got unnecessarily nerfed, and wyches losing haywire was a big deal, but other than that we seem fine. Salvo Splinter Cannons isn't nearly as bad as it seems. Mostly though, the one thing I felt from the game (and spectating others) is that we have greatly increased survivability. Blanket Feel No Pain from turn 3 (and being able to reliably get in lots of reserves to hide before that point) is a real boon, and night shields giving us 3+ jink is pretty solid. Think there's a lot of tricks to be found, and I'd love for others to jump in with their first impressions of games with the new codex!

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 18:16

Because I didn't play any game yet I'm only going to comment on the new wyches.
@Panic_Puppet wrote:
wyches lost a lot and gained little

As far as I see they only lost HwGs. It felt always off to attack vehicles with wyches. I did because it was too effective not to.
They gained in CD because we can get +T, +I and +Ld now which all help in assault phase. Sure we lost old Painbringer but it can be compensated with Shred and AP5 from Hydra Gauntlets. The loss might be in FnP. But you now get it automatically as turns pass.
So on drugs front I am hopeful. Toughness is especially good as T4 isn't affected by ID at S6 so FnP is still effective.
Together with a Spirit Probe Chronos you go up to a 75% save in CC.
You would need a kind of RR on CD roll to achieve more new Painbringer results.
So basically we won with new PfP and Spirit Probe. But you might not play a Chronos, that's true.

Our Raiders can take now 3+ Cover Saves with NS and EA got a major boost from 12+2d6" to 24" Flat out. I hoped we would have objective secured for some power grabbing skimmers  Twisted Evil
Without too much cover ignoring shooting (roll all defence dice on Perfect Timing ;-) you will get wyches into CC. Overwatch might still be a bit painful so always be well in fleet charge range (~8") when you hop off the Raider.

Sadly the Wych weapons numbers are a little skewed. Especially the Bloodbrides lost their purpose. Why can't they simply get up to 4 Wych weapons regardless their numbers? Like Trueborn can.
So now your always stuck with 1 Ww if you want to escort an HQ in a Raider? Dumb. Evil or Very Mad

So without a boost in the Wych Cult supplex I think Bloodbrides are officially dead.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 18:39

Pretty much agree with everything you said panic.

I would add that in the one game I had at 1000 points (a horde of reavers), I found that I was dancing out of line of sight with jump shoot jump and focusing on using my mobility to completing maelstrom objectives. All whilst refusing to commit to engaging his army, so that I could run the turn counter. This forced my opponent to come after me, but by this time PfP had already kicked in, and it was a slaughter. Smile

Cluster caltrops, hit and run and arena champions with power swords are no joke. Don't bother with blasters or heatlances though (as they will be firing at BS1 most of the time and can cause you to fail your charge by removing models). Also cluster caltrops shred vehicles in assault, S6 rending is brutal, just don't forget that hammer of wrath hits the facing you are in base contact with (but it's easy enough to wrap a cluster caltrop reaver round to the side or rear armour when charging). Smile

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 19:06

As it turns out, you can take a court without having to take an Archon. I had misinterpreted this, Shredder kindly pointed it out. So you can take a Succubus with nine Lhamaeans in a Raider. An escort for her that costs just 145 points, wounds anything on a 2, with 27 attacks on the charge, causing instant death on a 6 to wound. I thought it'd be all about the Medusae bomb for me, but I can see a poisonous escort for a Succubus being really nasty. They're the same points cost as the equivalent number of wyches, and will put so many wounds onto a squad it's just funny. Witch elf conversion time...

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 20:22

I played my first game with the new dex today. I'm really warming up to it.

Pfp, is great as it gradually grows. I can't remember having more than a few paintokens on my units save for my rampaging archon with grotesques.

Reaver, no longer do they sweep over infantry. As mentioned above. The caltrops really wreck tanks good. My opponent used 3/4 of his army trying to shoot and they still endured. They are now much more aggressive tank hunters. Will be keepin caltrops as standard armament.

Nightshields are good, a little expensive. If they would give shrouded instead they'd be great in nightfight.

Bit dissapointed with Razorwing this battle, but I faced a mech SM army.

The Talos didn't reach the lines as they where held back in reserve till turn 3 due to scenario rules. Cronos made impact with improved fnp.

Archon never reached combat so can't say yet. Wanted to try out the helmet, but my opponent didn't bring my archon's nemesis, his librarian.

Overall it was fun. Managed to get a draw. A lot to learn. Army was more a collection of fun units to use. Next time I'll put a bit more thought to it.



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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSun Oct 05 2014, 21:16

I also played my first one today. Was going to write this very thread!

I went for a kabalite heavy list against Necrons and Marines with Tau on my team (2 v 2). Went for a high risk deepstrike list and it was fun. But not super effective. Things that caught my eye:

1) Blasterborn are still excellent. 4 with blasters in a venom was great anti tank. Popped a landraider turn 1, a tesla skimmer thing. All good there, I can see deepstriking this unit as quite useful, especially with the small venom profile.

2) Venoms not getting Nightshields. This hurts. If you play a board with minimal cover, they really dont last long. I lost 3 in one turn to very few enemy models.

3) Haywire sourge/Heatlance Scourge. Yes. But derpstrike suicide squad? Nope. The haywire scourges in my game misshapped and were redeployed well out of the way. However the movement and the 24" range gave them a great threat bubble and they shot down a flyer, killed vindicator and held up some marines who were trying to get an objective. Actually didnt do to badly in combat...
Heatlances didnt last long. went suicide squad, didn't do much and then died to shooting. I feel they can be better used.

4) PfP is awesome. Seriously good. Especially late game where even scourges and warriors managed to rinse in combat. Makes reavers amazing.

5)  Shock-prows. Fun. And got themself a doomsday cannon. Deepstriked into the back, shot some stuff. Raider got penetrated and lost its dark lance. Warriors jumped out and got into cover. Raider zoomed off 18" into the side of the doomsday thing. Splat. No more doomsday cannon! This could be fun!

6) Razorwings. Good that they are in fast attack. But the AV10 all around still sucks. Mine got brought down by bolters today after doing very little. This isn't new obviously. But it raises serious concerns bout the voidraven though. Its a lot of points to be brought down by bolters.

7) Archon has to pick his targets carefully. Stuck him with incubi and he did alright. Good against SM/Necs once he had Furious charge. Even without the Incubi. Soul trap change really sucks. Ap3 Huskblade really hurts but soul trap change hurts more. Will still be taking the shadowfield.

8 ) Reavers. I miss baldevanes but the hammer of wrath stuff with caltrops is brutal. If you can get the right timing, especially when they are fuelled late game by PfP. They can really mop up. Get up to rage on them  with +1 strength drug and my god, it is beautiful.

9) Ravagers. Not completely dead. Dissie ravager can still rip up marines/termies but sometimes you do have to sacrifice a sponson to make sure you have the cover. Jinking just hurts. Loss of aerial assault is annoying and ruins the idea of having a lightly armoured quick vehicle.

TL:DR:
I like it. Positive changes in large. Adds a few more interesting dynamics to the army.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 01:28

I guess bladevanes were too good to last as they were, but at least I finally got my wish to be able to use cluster caltrops against vehicles. Even if it wasn't in the way I had hoped Very Happy

I wonder about caltrops on the arena champ (I modelled mine this way so I would still have 2/6 with nothing to be the first dead)? If the champ challenges/is challenged, does Hammer of Wrath hit the challengee only? If so could be an interesting manoeuver.

On the codex as a whole, some interesting new options (WWP, PfP dynamics, Mandrakes again?), but gee taking the hit to squad and character options hurt.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:06

The Artefacts you can only bring one of each per army. I dont see where one hq can only take one artefact.
I've played 3 games with the new dex, it's tons of fun to play with and the cronos and talos are amazing.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:47

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
The Artefacts you can only bring one of each per army. I dont see where one hq can only take one artefact.
I've played 3 games with the new dex, it's tons of fun to play with and the cronos and talos are amazing.


I just ordered 3 Talos to run as a HWB unit Twisted Evil I can't wait.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 08:34

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
I wonder about caltrops on the arena champ (I modelled mine this way so I would still have 2/6 with nothing to be the first dead)? If the champ challenges/is challenged, does Hammer of Wrath hit the challengee only? If so could be an interesting manoeuver.

It does, as challenges are declared at the start of the fight sub phase and cluster caltrops are resolved at I10. So you move the challengers into base contact, and splat. What's even more interesting is you can use this to get your caltrop character into base contact even if he wasn't before the challenge.

Another advantage is the champ gives one of your caltrops a 4+ look out sir. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 09:00

@Bleaksoul Brethren wrote:
The Artefacts you can only bring one of each per army. I dont see where one hq can only take one artefact.
I've played 3 games with the new dex, it's tons of fun to play with and the cronos and talos are amazing.

It's literally right below the bit about one of each. "Only one of each Artefact of Cruelty may be taken per army. A model may take one of the following:" (emphasis mine).

I'm heading home this coming weekend so won't get a chance to play (unless I head down on Wednesday but that's a maybe); the trade-off is that I -will- be able to pick up my Razorwings that I ran out of space for when moving house so I'll be able to try those out.

Amongst other things, I noticed that we've suddenly acquired AP5 on the wyches' special weapons...not great, but could come in handy against Orks/Nids/Guard etc. Still not certain wyches are a sensible choice though.

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 18:04

I must I was a bit disappointed when I looked through it the first through 10th or so time, but then I started thinking what can I take advantage of here? anyone notice reavers can be put on transports? or the army wide 4+ cover save 3+ on any troops if you do the realspace raiders detachment with 6 FA? that's of course if you put night shields on all your raiders.

I do wish it was written a bit more clearly though... the first time I went through it I thought you could finally take an archon on jetbike as under arcane wargear it has RJB hellion SB and beastmaster SB but they are missing from the wargear list section Sad

Mandrakes are finally better or at least useable. Raiders and venoms are FA as well as dedicated transports so venom spam is now easy 6 venoms with splinter cannons nothing else is only 390pts
though I personally would do warriors on raiders with Nshields and dark lance. thought about ramming with shock prows...
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 18:07

I must I was a bit disappointed when I looked through it the first through 10th or so time, but then I started thinking what can I take advantage of here? anyone notice reavers can be put on transports? or the army wide 4+ cover save 3+ on any troops if you do the realspace raiders detachment with 6 FA? that's of course if you put night shields on all your raiders.

I do wish it was written a bit more clearly though... the first time I went through it I thought you could finally take an archon on jetbike as under arcane wargear it has RJB hellion SB and beastmaster SB but they are missing from the wargear list section Sad

Mandrakes are finally better or at least useable. Raiders and venoms are FA as well as dedicated transports so venom spam is now easy 6 venoms with splinter cannons nothing else is only 390pts
though I personally would do warriors on raiders with Nshields and dark lance. thought about ramming with shock prows...
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:11

@Zoraius wrote:
I must I was a bit disappointed when I looked through it the first through 10th or so time, but then I started thinking what can I take advantage of here? anyone notice reavers can be put on transports? or the army wide 4+ cover save 3+ on any troops if you do the realspace raiders detachment with 6 FA? that's of course if you put night shields on all your raiders.

I do wish it was written a bit more clearly though... the first time I went through it I thought you could finally take an archon on jetbike as under arcane wargear it has RJB hellion SB and beastmaster SB but they are missing from the wargear list section Sad

Mandrakes are finally better or at least useable. Raiders and venoms are FA as well as dedicated transports so venom spam is now easy 6 venoms with splinter cannons nothing else is only 390pts
though I personally would do warriors on raiders with Nshields and dark lance. thought about ramming with shock prows...

Only infantry can go in transports I'm afraid. How do you get the 4+ 3+ on troops? Troops Raiders would get a 5+ and Stealth on turn one for a 4+ unless you jink. Though 4+ in the open turn one is still pretty nice. I'd have liked to have seen more wargear that allows us to control night fighting, like that Necron thing...
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeFri Oct 10 2014, 23:32

Quote :
5) Shock-prows. Fun. And got themself a doomsday cannon. Deepstriked into the back, shot some stuff. Raider got penetrated and lost its dark lance. Warriors jumped out and got into cover. Raider zoomed off 18" into the side of the doomsday thing. Splat. No more doomsday cannon! This could be fun!

Not quite sure about this.
Yes it gives you S7 when ramming (so its quite hard to glance anything if you dont manage to get the rear) but I would be very afraid to GET rammed in return as we are still AV10 and the skimmer lost the ability to jink the attempt in 7th.
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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 00:24

First impression stands as a solid ++. Me likey.
@Vraesque Malidrach wrote:
I'd have liked to have seen more wargear that allows us to control night fighting, like that Necron thing...  
Very much so.

Got in my first match vs Tau today.
Pros:
-Scary Town: WWP Archon/Haemy with Armour of Misery/Archangel of Pain, in a unit of Grots. Cleared out the area surrounding their landing zone no problem, killing some pathfinders and a couple broadsides. That worked great as a double-prong, DSing in the middle of his nice everything with 2 Talos and a Cronos driving up the front.
Definitely a bit of a gimmick, but with a little TGL support I say viable if you can keep your HQs alive long enough.

-Pain Train: Units of Talos, supported by Cronos with +1 FNP.
Oh my sweet hairy bearded lords. Tanked two full turns of fire from 2 units of fire warriors, fire blade, 2 full units of missilesides, and an ion hammerhead, all with pathfinder support. Then proceeded to wipe units in CC.
Cost went up, but they got better. Hard.

-Haywire Scourges: Got shot down before they accomplished anything.

-Reaver Jetbikes: I maybe made stupid decisions.
What size units do you folks take 'em in? I ran 3 x 3 Reavers, Blaster, Caltrops. Took out some infantry, a broadside, and scored some objectives while soaking up fire on their 3+ jink with FNP, but actually got beaten in CC by Tau Suits. Well, got beaten in overwatch mostly.

-Grotesques: Hit hard, and can take it in the face no problem. Gold star.

-Mandrakes: Brought 3 for outflanking line breaker. Great bully unit once PfP ramps up. Ran down a weakened unit of Kroot.

-Raider, Ravager, NS Useful with the dissie loadout. More threat for your snap-firing buck, and 3+ jink is again great.

Warlord Traits: mostly "ok", though I managed to roll #2 so was quite happy with that.

Drugs: Got +1T. T5 Reavers, hot damn!

Realspace Raiders detachment felt like a solid choice. As someone brought up elsewhere, having a little defensive buff before PfP kicks in is a nice touch, and since Fast Attack and MSU are all regular Dark Eldar tricks, what's not to like?

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 00:41

What were your lists? Do you remember?

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PostSubject: Re: New Codex, first impressions   New Codex, first impressions I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 11 2014, 01:27

For my match? Check 'em HERE, partway down.

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