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benth3bear
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:42

Hello,

In the new book it has the formation kabalite raiding party where you have to have 6 "kabalite warrior" units. Now since trueborn are now upgrades for the standard kabalite warrior unit does this mean you can have 6 trueborn units in those places?
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helvexis
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 01:52

No idea, good question

Personally i would say not as they are no longer kabalite warriors nor do they even. Go in the force org slot but as you say they are an upgrade not a seperate entry ... Though that could just be laziness on the writers part
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 02:05

Hmmm... There is only 1 entry for kabalite warriors so we need to check that. The Trueborn upgrade changes them to Kabalite trueborn with different options and costs

With that in mind I would say no, trueborn and not strictly speaking warriors

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benth3bear
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 13:34

Whilst I see that argument point, if they were completely different they would be their own entry in the codex surely?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 13:46

I could argue that you cant even include a sybarite as the entry for kabalite warriors (in regard to the stat line) only have 1 line

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benth3bear
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 13:50

They do however all fall under the Kabalite warrior datasheet
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 19:21

I've got to say, I agree on that. Trueborn are now upgrades for Kabalites, so there's nothing to stop you taking Trueborn upgrades in teh Formation.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 19:36

Doesn't the formation require you to take them as they are listed in the formation itself? I thought that formations list specific units that are included, including their upgrades and whatnot. I didn't think you could upgrade stuff in formations. (I won't get my book til Monday, so sorry if I'm totally off on this).
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benth3bear
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 19:37

says nothing about whether they can be upgraded or not
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 19:41

Does the formation specify any of the wargear for any of the units?
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benth3bear
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 19:43

only that they need to be given a raider or a venom transport
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 20:33

As a further note, the new Codex lists "Trueborn" as an upgrade exactly the same way as "Sybraite".
If you say you can't use Trueborn in the Formation, then it can't allow for Sybraite upgrades either, because they're not "Warriors" anymore in the same way as Trueborn.

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Darkgreen Pirate
Sybarite
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 20:39

kinda feels like the old "is an upgraded character still part of the unit for special weapon purposes" argument.

I see it as this; The new datasheets list trueborn as an upgrade to kabalites; so you cant get trueborn without paying for kabalites ergo trueborn count as kabalites for purposes of the formation.

In the new Ork codex, Nobs are a separate elite choice with all that that entails. They have a separate datasheet; our kabalites/trueborn do not have a separate datasheet. A nob may lead a squad of boyz as a sergeant, but he counts as an upgrade character (and is listed in the Ork Datasheet for simplicity sake) whereas trueborn take on a whole new force organisation slot but use the same datasheet. With the push toward the datasheet style of codici I would argue this is purposeful, trueborn are meant to be elite kabalites.

Whether its lazy codex writing, a simple oversight, or a deliberate attempt to secularise the Dark Eldar Covens and Kabals, the crux of the argument for me is can I get trueborn without getting kabalites? I cant. Trueborn count as kabalites.

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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 20:57

I'd say that if, through the upgrade, they become elite, then you can't do it. Not sure, though. This starts entering pretty philosophical "what is a kabbalite?" territory.

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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:01

For the purposes of the formation though, it doesn't matter if they are Elites or not, just whether or not they are Kabalites. Until we get a FAQ saying otherwise, I would think that upgraded Kabalite Warriors are still Kabalite Warriors.

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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:08

Fair enough. My gut tells me that RAI might be otherwise, but I don't disagree with your reading of it.
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:10

I suspect RAI is otherwise as well, but there's no way I'm going to try to second-guess the intentions of the game designers. That way lies madness. I just hope they clear up the confusion with a FAQ before too long.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:37

No, really guys. Sorry to spoil this, but Kabalite Trueborn unit is not a Kabalite Warrior unit. Kabalite Warrior unit that takes a Sybarite is still a Kabalite Warrior unit. RAW are very clear IMHO. RAI does not matter, because it is speculative.
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benth3bear
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:42

but it is a kabalite warrior unit with an upgrade, if they were completely separate then they would have given them separate entries
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:42

@aurynn wrote:
No, really guys. Sorry to spoil this, but Kabalite Trueborn unit is not a Kabalite Warrior unit. Kabalite Warrior unit that takes a Sybarite is still a Kabalite Warrior unit. RAW are very clear IMHO. RAI does not matter, because it is speculative.

Okay. Firstly, that is my opinion too. BUT:

If the formation rules allow any desired upgrades to be taken on the units it specifies, and the upgrade to Trueborn is an upgrade allowed under Kabbalite Warriors, then I don't see how RAW forbids this.

Unless the language in the book is something like "A unit may be upgraded to a unit of Trueborn". This language (specifically including a phrase equivalent to "...a unit of Trueborn") would make clear that the thing it is a unit of has changed.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:45

As soon as you pay for the upgrade, it is no longer a Kabalite Warrior unit, Its Kabalite Trueborn unit. If your wording were true, then you could not buy the special weapon allotment that is permissible only to Kabalite Trueborns, not Kabalite warriors. You decide. :-) Kabalite Warriors are not permitted 4 special weapons per 5 models.

EDIT: to further my argument a dedicated transport bought for Trueborn does not have OS. Warriors transport does. Battlefield role changes too. The unit is different. In fluff (RAI) and in RAW. Still my opinion ofc, but I dont see any room for another interpretation.
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:51

Well, the question really is: at what point to they become something other than Kabalite Warriors for the purposes of the Formation rule? And it's completely unclear from the Formation rule itself what that line is. Is it anything bought and upgraded from a particular unit entry in a codex? Is it anything that continues to have the same name (in which case Sybarites are out)? Are upgrades permitted at all?

Personally, I find it difficult to draw a clear RAW line here. If the language makes clear, grammatically, that the upgraded unit is no longer a unit of Kabalite Warriors, then fine. But if not, I think there is a valid argument to be made - cheesy as I think it is - that an upgraded Kabalite Warriors unit satisfies the Formation's requirement that they be Kabalite Warriors.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:52

I dont think so. Formation requirement is that the unit has to be both "troop" and "Kabalite Warriors". Trueborn do not fulfill this even with the interpretation that they remain Warriors. As it clearly says that their role changes to "elite".
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benth3bear
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:54

where does it say anywhere they have to be troops?
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valmir
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PostSubject: Re: New formation and "kabalite warriors"   New formation and "kabalite warriors" I_icon_minitimeSat Oct 04 2014, 21:57

Does it require that they remain the same role? I read it as a kind of "FYI - they retain the same roles in a formation as they would have in a standard CAD, unless it says anything to the contrary".

Which, in this case, would mean that they "remain" Elite.

Sorry for Devil's Advocating so hard here. I really don't disagree with absolutely anything you're saying.
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