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 Ravagers, what to do with them now?

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PainReaver
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 01:49

A True anti-tank composition would involve putting 3 Dark Lance Ravagers, and 3 Scourges with Heat Lances.

Klaivex Chardonyx- You don't see many IG players taking more than 1 Wyvern Battery. Because they often need room for say a Basilisk battery, a couple of Russes and a couple of Chimeras, along with mech vets and company command, if they're doing a mech list.

Scourges with Haywire Blasters, also get killed after firing their first shot, in cover or not. Scourges with Heat Lances get killed after their first shot, but at least take down the vehicle with them.
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Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 02:37

I benched tri-lance ravagers a while back to much happiness. Instead I used two razorwings and a bomber. Which were a bit expensive at the time, but I found them effective because a) they were flying making them usually more durable than ravagers and b) they could hit flyers on full BS. The major hit to our AT options is not the ravager point increase, it's the loss of HWGs.

Anyone claiming an open-topped AV11 is durable is clearly misled, especially in a world where flickerfields don't exist, and ignore cover does. Scourges however are actually pretty sturdy. Especially once they get FnP which s now guaranteed.

There may be room in my list for Ravager's with dissies, but I doubt it.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:47

How exactly are scourges more durable to ignores cover again?
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 03:50

Well, they would have an armor save, I suppose.
Depends on what type of shot is coming at them and the Ravager, really.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 04:38

@Brom wrote:
How exactly are scourges more durable to ignores cover again?

Well they get a 4+ armor save and a 6+ invulnerable save, meaning by turn two anything S5 or less they're taking 2 saves. Granted a +6 invulnerable isn't great but two chances to save a failed wound is not something you find on many units in our codex.

A heavy bolter firing into said squad should only kill one scourge, and it can still scratch a ravager.

A serpent shield that rolls max hits should only kill 2 scourges but it will likely take the ravager off the table.

Not saying which is more durable I just don't think scourges are that squishy.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 06:36

By combining Tri-Lance Ravagers with triple heat lance/haywire scourges, you have synergy with each other- whilst the scourges strip hull points, Ravagers try and get immobilized, stun, shaken, weapon destroyed results in order to ensure the retaliation on the scourges is limited.

Kind of what Brom was saying.

Scourges aren't squishy, but sustained firepower, within 24" can destroy them. If you just took scourges, it makes it a no brainer for the enemy to fire everything on the scourges, and no amount of feel no pain and armour save/invul can save them. They are still T3 and therefore easy to wound. If you have Ravagers, they now have to decide whether to split their fire and not fully take down either, go for the Ravagers, or cull the Scourges.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 07:27

@PainReaver wrote:
By combining Tri-Lance Ravagers with triple heat lance/haywire scourges, you have synergy with each other- whilst the scourges strip hull points, Ravagers try and get immobilized, stun, shaken, weapon destroyed results in order to ensure the retaliation on the scourges is limited.

Kind of what Brom was saying.

Scourges aren't squishy, but sustained firepower, within 24" can destroy them. If you just took scourges, it makes it a no brainer for the enemy to fire everything on the scourges, and no amount of feel no pain and armour save/invul can save them. They are still T3 and therefore easy to wound. If you have Ravagers, they now have to decide whether to split their fire and not fully take down either, go for the Ravagers, or cull the Scourges.

You say take a ravager, I say, take a cheaper squad of blasterborn on a venom. One more shot, you can jink and fire at full BS, and you have an invulnerable save if the weapon firing at you has ignore cover. Yes, you lose range and mobility, but the ravager is just too overpriced. Especially with the loss of aerial assault, which made the weapons platform lose range and mobility. Also. Razorwings. For 15 points more you can hit flyers at full BS and get four rocking missiles and not open topped. It's just not efficient anti-tank anymore. It can still rock heavy infantry though.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 07:41

Blasterborn on Venom isn't any cheaper. Assuming four blasters in that squad. Totals about 180 pts. Shorter range, but additional AT firepower. Razorwings have to come on in t2 or more, but are more durable

You could actually combine Blaster Trueborns with Scourges, and Ravagers/Razorwing. That's a lot of anti-tank right there. Here's how a 1500 pt list would look. Perfect against Mech Guard and crap just about everything else.

Archon, Blaster, Venom, 2x SC- 140
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140

This gives you an abominable amount of AT to work with. If you go the Razor route, this gives you some reasonable means to wipe out AA.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 07:57

@PainReaver wrote:
Blasterborn on Venom isn't any cheaper. Assuming four blasters in that squad. Totals about 180 pts. Shorter range, but additional AT firepower. Razorwings have to come on in t2 or more, but are more durable

You could actually combine Blaster Trueborns with Scourges, and Ravagers/Razorwing. That's a lot of anti-tank right there. Here's how a 1500 pt list would look. Perfect against Mech Guard and crap just about everything else.

Archon, Blaster, Venom, 2x SC- 140
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140

This gives you an abominable amount of AT to work with. If you go the Razor route, this gives you some reasonable means to wipe out AA.

Of note is that if you take the razorwings you get 12 large blast S6 AP5 48" range missiles. and 3 twin-linked splinter rifles. Sometimes you don't face mech heavy armies. Look, I love the ravager and it's iconic, but until they nerf the wave serpent I'm not paying wave serpent prices for a unit that's less durable and less offensive. Especially when I can ally it in. I wouldn't. I hate eldar, but that's just the way I feel.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 09:21

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@PainReaver wrote:
Blasterborn on Venom isn't any cheaper. Assuming four blasters in that squad. Totals about 180 pts. Shorter range, but additional AT firepower. Razorwings have to come on in t2 or more, but are more durable

You could actually combine Blaster Trueborns with Scourges, and Ravagers/Razorwing. That's a lot of anti-tank right there. Here's how a 1500 pt list would look. Perfect against Mech Guard and crap just about everything else.

Archon, Blaster, Venom, 2x SC- 140
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Trueborn, 4x Blasters, Venom 2x SC- 180
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Warriors, Venom, 2x SC- 105
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Scourges, 4x HWB/HL- 120
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140
Ravager, 3x DL, NS or Razorwing, 2x DL- 140

This gives you an abominable amount of AT to work with. If you go the Razor route, this gives you some reasonable means to wipe out AA.

Of note is that if you take the razorwings you get 12 large blast S6 AP5 48" range missiles. and 3 twin-linked splinter rifles. Sometimes you don't face mech heavy armies. Look, I love the ravager and it's iconic, but until they nerf the wave serpent I'm not paying wave serpent prices for a unit that's less durable and less offensive. Especially when I can ally it in. I wouldn't. I hate eldar, but that's just the way I feel.

In that above list, the Razorwing approach might be sensible, if not autopick, considering already 3 scourges and 2 trueborn units are already there to provide the tankbusting. Also in the above list, one Razorwing might have to be a DL Ravager because of the lone venom taking up the FA slot (oh how they should have been back to heavy).

In my list, though I might have trouble with the Razorwing over the ravager, due to having relatively limited AT on the field, but you may digress and see an alternative viewpoint.

Succubus, Glaive, Armor of Misery- 110
Incubi, Klaivex, Venom 2x SC (Succubus joins)- 155
Wyches, 3 Hydra Gaunts, Hekatrix w/ Agonizer, Raider w- 225
Warrior, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ Racks, NS- 180
Warrior, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ Racks, NS- 180
Scourges, 4x HL- 120
Reavers, 3x CC, 3x HL, AC w/ Agonizer- 249
Ravager- 3x DL, NS (Razorwing- 2x DL)- 140
Ravager- 3x DL, NS (Razorwing- 2x DL)- 140

The advantages of the Razorwing is that i have the missiles to mow through infantry mobs and have some way of defending against air. I lose 2 lances in return. Disadvantages, serious skyfire can effortless dispatch my razorwings.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 16:27

I like the idea of dissie ravagers forcing enemy units to go to ground and allowing my no grenade units assault them in terrain. Its a nice synergy.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravagers, what to do with them now?   Ravagers, what to do with them now? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeMon Oct 06 2014, 16:51

Ravagers are also great for capturing home objectives.

Dissie Ravagers is an excellent buy if you have enough AT, in the form of Scourges + Trueborn components.
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